We are missing half the gospel...?

[UnlitMikey]

My wife and I read this post on medium the other day, and we wanted to start a discussion here on the forums about this topic to get your views, so we made an account on christianforums and here we are.

Not sure if links to medium posts aren't accepted, but I am not sure how else to share this post without completely copy and pasting this lady's work. So, if I may here is the link - The Missing Half of the Gospel of Grace – Matthew’s House – Medium or HERE.

One of the things that caught my attention is the section speaking about the old testament law. Through my time browsing christianforums I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it. This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[JoeP222w]

Big concern with that article, there is nothing in there about repentance or forsaking sin.

Christ did not abolish the Law, He perfectly fulfilled it. And if anyone is in Christ, they also fulfill the Law, because when God looks on us, He sees Christs perfect righteousness. That does not mean that the Christian is perfectly sinless, but if they are in Christ, they are a new creation, and they have become dead to sin, which is all the more reason why the Christian should not be drawn to sin.

But if anyone is not in Christ, they will be judged by the Law and shown to be guilty.

 

[mkgal1]

This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

I agree with this, but am unsure how to elaborate on it effectively.

When we respond to life situations in love as opposed to law....the reason behind the formation of the law is fulfilled (I believe).

I think what is often misunderstood is that the "Gospel of Grace" isn't an "anything goes" and "everything is okay and accepted" kind of way---it's more about (as far as I've processed it so far) giving people the room to have an actual heart change for themselves. I don't believe that once a person recites a few words of a prayer they are automatically a "new creation". I do believe we have to be involved in joining in our transformation. I actually believe this is where the mainstream Christian church has gone off course---this idea of just repeating a few words and "bamm" you're in the club (but then that gets complicated.....because that's interpreted as a 'theology of works').

 

[UnlitMikey]

Big concern with that article, there is nothing in there about repentance or forsaking sin.

Christ did not abolish the Law, He perfectly fulfilled it. And if anyone is in Christ, they also fulfill the Law, because when God looks on us, He sees Christs perfect righteousness. That does not mean that the Christian is perfectly sinless, but if they are in Christ, they are a new creation, and they have become dead to sin, which is all the more reason why the Christian should not be drawn to sin.

But if anyone is not in Christ, they will be judged by the Law and shown to be guilty.

Thanks for the response, what exactly are you saying she should have mentioned? That she should have dug more into asking for forgiveness?

 

[~Anastasia~]

My wife and I read this post on medium the other day, and we wanted to start a discussion here on the forums about this topic to get your views, so we made an account on christianforums and here we are.

Not sure if links to medium posts aren't accepted, but I am not sure how else to share this post without completely copy and pasting this lady's work. So, if I may here is the link - The Missing Half of the Gospel of Grace – Matthew’s House – Medium or HERE.

One of the things that caught my attention is the section speaking about the old testament law. Through my time browsing christianforums I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it. This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

Thoughts?

Hello, and welcome to CF!

We are certainly under the New Covenant, and that is clear from the first ruling passed down by the Apostles at the first Council, in the book of Acts.

HOWEVER ... that does not mean that God simply looks at us through "Christ-tinted glasses" and we can continue to act in the flesh of the old man. The writer hits on a good point - what then are we do to with the rest of our lives? Our remaining time does have a purpose. God has prepared good works for us, and we are to walk in them, being transformed into ACTUAL likeness of Christ. Paul writes quite a bit about disciplining the flesh, running the race, persevering. This is all part of our salvation, if God grants that we should live life after our conversion.

 

[JoeP222w]

Thanks for the response, what exactly are you saying she should have mentioned? That she should have dug more into asking for forgiveness?

A key part of Jesus' ministry was commanding people to repent, to turn from sin, to forsake sin. This is more than just asking for forgiveness. Repentance is more than just intellectual agreement that you have sin in your life. It is admitting you are on the wrong road, apologizing to God, turning around to Christ, and following after Him.

Far too often in Western Evangelicalism, repentance is completely left out of the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, so many people are led to believe they just have to ask for forgiveness and God has no problem with them continuing on in their sin. God is holy. He will not turn a blind eye to sin. And if you go to church on Sunday, but live like Hell Monday through Saturday, and have no problem with that, the Bible grants you no assurance of salvation if you continue in sin without repentance.

 

[Soyeong]

My wife and I read this post on medium the other day, and we wanted to start a discussion here on the forums about this topic to get your views, so we made an account on christianforums and here we are.

Not sure if links to medium posts aren't accepted, but I am not sure how else to share this post without completely copy and pasting this lady's work. So, if I may here is the link - The Missing Half of the Gospel of Grace – Matthew’s House – Medium or HERE.

One of the things that caught my attention is the section speaking about the old testament law. Through my time browsing christianforums I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it. This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

Thoughts?

Hello,

While it is true that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are still nevertheless under the same God with the same attributes and the same way to act in accordance with those attributes, so we are still under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law instructs us how to walk in God's ways in doing what is holy, righteous, and good, and as part of the New Covenant, we are still required to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor and in Romans 10:4, Jesus is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so it is a mistake not to think of the Mosaic Covenant as being a covenant of love with Christ. If the Sodom and Gomorrah were not under God's Law and were not obligated to refrain from being wicked, then God had not just grounds by which to judge them for being wicked, so we are all under God's Law God's Law regardless of whether or not we consider ourselves to be under it.

 

[1213]

...I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it. This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

Thoughts?

According to the Bible, person can enter into Kingdom of Heaven, even if he has not obeyed law perfectly:

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

But still:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

God’s commandments are good, why would anyone not want to live according to them, especially when it means this:

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

Murders, theft, lies and stuff like that are evil and bad, I hope you understand that and don’t want to do them.

 

[Sabertooth]

I believe that the Spirit of the Law is still the ideal, but we now have grace, repentance, Salvation and a Paraclete to help us get, stay and return there.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The other half is not missing, it just has not been preached. And the preachers that do preach it are called false prophets.

 

[Soyeong]

- The Missing Half of the Gospel of Grace – Matthew’s House – Medium or HERE.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law was given to reveal what sin is, so it was how his audience knew what sin is, which means that repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law and turning back to obedience is an integral part of the Gospel message. I would also agree with the article that the Gospel message should also include grace.

God has always be a God of grace and has always shown His grace to people throughout both the OT and NT. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. In Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, and this was by no accident, but rather he was trained how to rightly live by grace and was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly, and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, ungodly people pervert God's grace into a license to sin, which is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life", and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to God's commands, so God shows His grace to use by training us how to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

We are not given the righteousness of Christ so that we will hide it under a bushel, but so that we will let it shine by following Christ's example of doing what is righteous in accordance with the Law. We are given the righteousness of Christ so that we become slaves of righteousness, not so that we will become free from following God's instructions for how to practice righteousness. The Law is God's instructions for how to practice righteousness, or in other words, for how those who are righteous ought to act, not for how to become righteous, so the Law was never given for the purpose providing the means of becoming saved in the first place, but as instructions for how we should act because we have been saved. So it is that much more true that we are not saved by obeying man-made works of law.

To fulfill the Law means "to cause God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be" (2c), and this is precisely what Jesus proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of Matthew 5 after he said that he came to fulfill the Law. According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it is referring to obeying it as it should be, not to something unique that Jesus did. Likewise, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which doesn't refer to doing away with it, but to obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again doesn't refer to doing away with it, but to causing the Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed. There are also many other examples speaking of people fulfilling the law in this manner found in other Jewish writings, so it has nothing to do with doing away with God's righteous standard.

In regard to Colossians 2:14, crosses were never uses as a means of disposing of laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the charges against the person being crucified or the violations of the law that they had committed (Matthew 27:37). This fits perfectly with our sins or violations of God's Law being nailed to Messiah's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but does not fit at all with God doing away with His righteous standard. If Gentiles have never been under God's Law, then they have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

According to John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scripture concerning himself, according to Hebrews 10:7, the volume of the scroll is written about Jesus, and according to Romans 10:4, the goal of the Law is a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so the Law brings us to Christ because it is all about him and how to have a relationship with Him. Jesus set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so the Law teaches us how to be like him, and our sanctification is about being made to be more like him.

Again, Jesus summarized the Law as being God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, so there is nothing brand new about the command to love one another or distinct from what the OT commands. However, if you think Jesus added a brand new command, then you should think that he sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2, and therefore could not be our Savior. Again, God did not make us righteous so that we would be free from following His commands for how to do what is righteous, but just the opposite. Hebrews does not say that God found fault with His righteous standard, but that he found fault with the people for breaking their covenant because of the hardness of their hearts, so the solution to the problem is not to do away with God's righteous standard, but to do away with what is hindering us from meeting it, so the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to cause us to obey His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have and will not lead us to disobey any of His commands.

It is deeply inconsistent for you to hold the position that we are free from sin while holding the position that we are free to do what God has revealed to be sin in His Law. Rather, we have been set free from sin so that we might be free to live in obedience to God's Law and meet is righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). It is those who have a carnal mind who refuse to submit to God's Law in contrast with those who are walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:4-7).

The distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is reflected in modern discussions about law enforcement and is not in regard to whether the law should be obeyed, but in the manner in which people obey the law with respect to its intention. For example:

Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Someone who is focused on obeying the spirit of the law will understand this as commanding us not to swear falsely, but someone who is focused on obeying the letter of the law will understand this as saying that we are free to swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name. However, someone who was outwardly obeying this law in the correct manner might still not be obeying it according to its intention of teaching us how to walk in God ways in accordance with His attributes: holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faith (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:22-23). Obedience to God has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love and God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from him, because that would be missing the whole point of God's commands. Paul counted obedience to the Law without being focused on growing in a relationship with Christ to be rubbish because again he was missing the whole point (Philippians 3:8).

It is again deeply inconsistent to say that because we are free from sin and have the Holy Spirit we can now produce holy fruit in our lives while saying that we are free from having to follow God's instructions for how to refrain from sin and for how to product holy fruit. While everything listed in Galatians 5:22-23 is in accordance with what the Law instructs, everything listed in Galatians 5:19-21 is against what the Law instructs, so again it is deeply inconsistent to say that we are free from the works of the flesh while saying that we are free from having to obey the Law that instructs against the works of the flesh. Dead works are the works that lead to death, which are sins in transgression of the Law, not obedience to what our God has commanded, which brings life. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey His teachings, and that his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father who sent him, so he did not depart in the slightest from what the Father had commanded, which is the good way where we will find rest for our souls (Matthew 11:28-30, Jeremiah 6:16-19).

 

[UnlitMikey]

Interesting discussion for sure. Thank you guys for the replies.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

My wife and I read this post on medium the other day, and we wanted to start a discussion here on the forums about this topic to get your views, so we made an account on christianforums and here we are.

Not sure if links to medium posts aren't accepted, but I am not sure how else to share this post without completely copy and pasting this lady's work. So, if I may here is the link - The Missing Half of the Gospel of Grace – Matthew’s House – Medium or HERE.

One of the things that caught my attention is the section speaking about the old testament law. Through my time browsing christianforums I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it. This medium post, to me, helps verify exactly why we are NOT under the written law, but under a new covenant of love with Christ.

Thoughts?

We are saved as the Good News indicated, with the Spirit leading us into all truth, and enabling us to understand the word.

The sower parable well explains what happens, and we know that many who profess to be saved ('Lord, Lord') never knew the Lord. Just as it was when Jesus first came. So, this means they do not hold the message, therefore they find other things to do with their efforts.

That said, the Law is good and holy, but ultimately, it is spiritual, so hard to understand.

Jesus did explain that we uphold the Law, if we are ambitious for praise in the Kingdom.

 

[Soyeong]

We are saved as the Good News indicated, with the Spirit leading us into all truth, and enabling us to understand the word.

The sower parable well explains what happens, and we know that many who profess to be saved ('Lord, Lord') never knew the Lord. Just as it was when Jesus first came. So, this means they do not hold the message, therefore they find other things to do with their efforts.

That said, the Law is good and holy, but ultimately, it is spiritual, so hard to understand.

Jesus did explain that we uphold the Law, if we are ambitious for praise in the Kingdom.

Everything in the Bible is there to teach us about God and how to have a relationship with Him. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, which were not his own, but that of the Father, so obedience to what the Father has commanded has always been about growing in a relationship with God based on faith and love. This would mean that someone who was outwardly obeying the Law while their heart was far from God, that Christ never knew, would nevertheless be counted as Lawlessness because they missed that the entire point of obeying the Law was to teach us how to have a relationship with Christ, which why Paul counted that as rubbish (Philippians 3:8). The Law is spiritual in that is has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles, of which the listed laws are just examples, and those principles are to teach us how to walk in God's ways so that grow in an intimate relationship with him as we reflect His attributes to the world.

 

[Hillsage]

One of the things that caught my attention is the section speaking about the old testament law. Through my time browsing christianforums I have noticed a good number of believers thinking we need to be following the old testament laws, as if we are still under it.

That's because they actually think the law was given to 'save' us. According to scripture it wasn't. It was sent to INCREASE the trespasses!!!! And the result of those increased trespasses was what, according to scripture?....increased SIN!!!

Romans 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Then, when you add to the ignorance that 'the law would save', we then get a watered down (unbiblical) definition of grace IMO. A definition that says it is "unmerited or undeserved favor". OK what does scripture say?

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.

1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

But, eyes wide open, in both these verses, He is speaking to SAVED people....right? OK, so if I want "more grace" (James 4:6, 1Pet 5) than He gave me for the salvation of my spirit....which truly was "unmerited and undeserved" then how am I going to get it, in order to 'work out the salvation of my soul with fear and trembling'?

OH, how do I know it was my born again spirit was saved in James 4:6? Because my 'born-again "spirit" is what God is "yearning jealously after" according to verse 5 where James is talking to 'Christians'.

James 4:5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us"? (Christians)

Short answer is. The standard of the NT is even higher than the OT. And if one couldn't be saved by the OT (the reason for Jesus to come and fulfill it)...even if you could/did fulfill the OT to the letter of the law like Jesus, you still would fall short of the 'higher calling' we have in the NT.

Is there MORE to the gospel???? Oh yes.

 

[Sabertooth]

After getting saved by grace, through faith, should we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Answer at Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6 - New King James Version )

What about when we fail at that endeavor? (Answer at Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:9 - New King James Version )

The Spirit of the Law, not just the letter. (See Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3 - New King James Version )

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Everything in the Bible is there to teach us about God and how to have a relationship with Him. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, which were not his own, but that of the Father, so obedience to what the Father has commanded has always been about growing in a relationship with God based on faith and love. This would mean that someone who was outwardly obeying the Law while their heart was far from God, that Christ never knew, would nevertheless be counted as Lawlessness because they missed that the entire point of obeying the Law was to teach us how to have a relationship with Christ, which why Paul counted that as rubbish (Philippians 3:8). The Law is spiritual in that is has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles, of which the listed laws are just examples, and those principles are to teach us how to walk in God's ways so that grow in an intimate relationship with him as we reflect His attributes to the world.

Yes, very well said, as usual.

 

[Soyeong]

That's because they actually think the law was given to 'save' us. According to scripture it wasn't. It was sent to INCREASE the trespasses!!!! And the result of those increased trespasses was what, according to scripture?....increased SIN!!!

Romans 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I agree that the Law was never given to save us, but so far I've never a person on this forum who thinks that we should obey the Law who also thinks that it was given to save us, but rather it is only among people who don't believe that we should obey the Law who hold that mistaken position. In Romans 7:7, Paul said that God's Law was not sin, but that it revealed what sin is, so it would be a mistake to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to God's Law, especially when it fits perfectly with his description of the law of sin. The primary purpose of God's Law is to teach us how to walk in His ways.

Then, when you add to the ignorance that 'the law would save', we then get a watered down (unbiblical) definition of grace IMO. A definition that says it is "

unmerited or undeserved favor". OK what does scripture say?

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.

1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

But, eyes wide open, in both these verses, He is speaking to SAVED people....right? OK, so if I want "more grace" (James 4:6, 1Pet 5) than He gave me for the salvation of my spirit....which truly was "unmerited and undeserved" then how am I going to get it, in order to 'work out the salvation of my soul with fear and trembling'?

OH, how do I know it was my born again spirit was saved in James 4:6? Because my 'born-again "spirit" is what God is "yearning jealously after" according to verse 5 where James is talking to 'Christians'.

James 4:5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us"? (Christians)

According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, which is an accurate description of what the Law was given to instruct how to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into a license to sin, which is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is made known in our lives, it straightforwardly takes the form of obedience to His commands, so shows His grace to us by teaching us how to walk in His ways.

Short answer is. The standard of the NT is even higher than the OT. And if one couldn't be saved by the OT (the reason for Jesus to come and fulfill it)...even if you could/did fulfill the OT to the letter of the law like Jesus, you still would fall short of the 'higher calling' we have in the NT.

Is there MORE to the gospel???? Oh yes.

According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God had commanded, so if you think that anyone tired to do that, then you should think that they sinned and needed repent. Rather, God's righteous standard is eternal and does not change, so neither does the way to live in accordance with His righteousness. You just said that according to Scripture the Law wasn't given to save us, so it doesn't follow that Jesus had to do away with the Law because it didn't do something that it was never given for in the first place.

Rather, Jesus fulfilled the Law by "causing God's will (as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should" (2c). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5:17, he then immediately proceeded to fulfill it six times by teaching how to correctly obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which countless people have done, so it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did to do away with it. Likewise, according to Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which again is referring to obeying it how it should be, not to doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it. God had no need to do away with His righteous standard, nor should we want Him to.

According to Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult, but that His Word is near us, in our hearts and in our mouths so that we can do it, and Romans 10:5-8 quotes these verses in regard to what our faith says, so to say that we can't fulfill the Law is to call God a liar and to deny what our faith says. When we fulfill the Law we are living according to the standard of the NT because we are living by faith in God to teach us how to rightly walk in His ways. Jesus began His ministry to with Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law was given to reveal what sin is, so repentance from our disobedience to God's Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.

 

[Shempster]

So is the second half of the gospel repentance? It seems like that's what you are getting at.

I would agree, but I kind of think there is alot of misunderstanding of what repentance is.
The way I have been taught for the last 30 years is that repentance means to turn around and change direction. But if I would ever ask what that looks like in the real world, the answer always seems to be "stop drinking, smoking, cussing, spitting, telling bad jokes, watching rated R movies, only read Christian books, don't dance or play cards, don't gamble and make sure you are in church every sunday".

I am sure that repentance means to stop thinking like the devil. He thought himself "above" God.
He thought he was really special. He thought that he could rule the universe better than the Creator Himself. He thought he could control humans and get them to do his bidding. Humans do that, too.

I think THAT is the thing we are to shun. I might guess that THAT could be the 2nd half of the gospel: to humble ourselves and only love and help others rather than use them, control them and take money from them. I believe He wants us to love and accept other people, caring for their needs and considering them more important than ourselves.

 

[Hillsage]

I agree that the Law was never given to save us, but so far I've never a person on this forum who thinks that we should obey the Law who also thinks that it was given to save us, but rather it is only among people who don't believe that we should obey the Law who hold that mistaken position. In Romans 7:7, Paul said that God's Law was not sin, but that it revealed what sin is, so it would be a mistake to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to God's Law, especially when it fits perfectly with his description of the law of sin. The primary purpose of God's Law is to teach us how to walk in His ways.

I'm not sure I'm following your thinking above. Yes, we agree the law doesn't save, but the next 'bolded' statement needs more clarification for me. I agree the law isn't sin, but disagree that 'that point' determines what law we're talking about in 5:20. I think Roman 7:7 in context with 7:8 makes it clear to me that 'trespass increased and sin increased' because of "the law'. And for me I don't see scripture dividing 'the Law' into ceremonial law, moral law, law of God, law of Moses etc. I think it's categorically still all 'the Law' IMO. And the law was given to ultimately reveal to man his utter need for 'the Savior' our Lord Jesus.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, THAT the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note above that KJV correctly translates the word OF concerning whose faith we need for initial salvation, which results in the born-again spirit. which is the 'only' "new creation" that takes place upon accepting Jesus. It certainly isn't 'our soul' that's a 'new creation' we still still sin today because we have not had Christ fully "formed in us" Gal 4:19 nor have we fully exchanged our 'carnal minds' for "the mind of Christ" which is available to us by the spirit of Christ in us.

According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, which is an accurate description of what the Law was given to instruct how to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into a license to sin, which is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is made known in our lives, it straightforwardly takes the form of obedience to His commands, so shows His grace to us by teaching us how to walk in His ways.

I think we're in more agreement than disagreement concerning the correct definition of grace. Would you say that the general def. of grace as just the "unmerited favor of God" falls short? I do. I think that in every scripture you've presented above, that the better definition is one that portrays 'grace as THE POWER of God to accomplish/fulfil the truth demanded by God. I believe that nominal Christianity has watered grace down to being a greasy cover up from God, to allow forgiven sin in our lives. I believe we are called to a higher calling than that. I believe I am called to "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;"...and He never sinned.

According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God had commanded, so if you think that anyone tired to do that, then you should think that they sinned and needed repent. Rather, God's righteous standard is eternal and does not change, so neither does the way to live in accordance with His righteousness. You just said that according to Scripture the Law wasn't given to save us, so it doesn't follow that Jesus had to do away with the Law because it didn't do something that it was never given for in the first place.

No Jesus didn't do away with 'the law' He nullified it to any who have come to Christ. It's purpose is to lead you to Christ.

GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).

Rather, Jesus fulfilled the Law by "causing God's will (as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should" (2c). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5:17, he then immediately proceeded to fulfill it six times by teaching how to correctly obey it.

For one thing they were still under the law when Jesus instructed them....we aren't. I'd say Matt is an example of where he RAISED the standard for us to be HIGHER than 'the law'. Now "anger with your brother is equal to murder" in your heart.

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which countless people have done,

Has anyone, but Jesus, ever done it 'perfectly' to every neighbor? No, then fail in one point and you are guilty of the 'whole law'. As I said earlier, proving to you your need for Jesus our Savior.

I'm going to stop Soyeong, I need to leave for church and this post is too long already. I wish we could 'sit and talk', I think we'd find we have much more in common than this format allows. But even if we didn't, there is nothing you or I believe that changes whether or not we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We just have different opinions on things which in and of themselves have neither the POWER to save nor condemn.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not sure I'm following your thinking above. Yes, we agree the law doesn't save, but the next 'bolded' statement needs more clarification for me.

God had many purpose for giving the Law, but providing a means of becoming saved was never one of them, and while I have see a number of people on this forum who believe that we are required to obey the Law, not one of us believes that we need to obey it in order to become saved. Rather, the Law is God's instructs for how we should live because we have been saved. Our salvation is from sin and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law, so our salvation necessarily involves being freed from our penalty for transgressing the Law, and being trained by grace through faith to stop sinning and start doing good works, both of which are what Christ gave himself to accomplish (Titus 2:11-14). So this training we are receiving to stop sinning is what our salvation from sin looks like, not what we need to obey in order to become saved. However, I have met many people on this forum who mistakenly think that the Law was given to provide a means of salvation through perfect obedience, and not one of these people think that the Law should be obeyed.

I agree

the law isn't sin, but disagree that 'that point' determines what law we're talking about in 5:20. I think Roman 7:7 in context with 7:8 makes it clear to me that 'trespass increased and sin increased' because of the law. And the law was given to ultimately reveal to man his utter need for 'the Savior' our Lord Jesus.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, THAT the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note above that KJV correctly translates the word OF concerning whose faith we need for initial salvation, which results in the born-again spirit. which is the 'only' "new creation" that takes place upon accepting Jesus. It certainly isn't 'our soul' that's a 'new creation' we still still sin today because we have not had Christ fully "formed in us" Gal 4:19 nor have we fully exchanged our 'carnal minds' for "the mind of Christ" which is available to us by the spirit of Christ in us.

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that we the law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh, which is a summary statement of what he said previously. So it is the law of sin that came about to increase tresspasses (5:20), that stirs up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held Paul captive (7:6), that gives sin its power (7:8), that deceived Paul through the commandment and slayed him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and that is the good that he wanted to (7:13-20).

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So we need to ask ourselves whether this verse is speaking about us not being under the law of sin or God's Law. Paul specified that it was a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not fit at all with Paul's description of God's Law, which he explicitly said was not sin, but rather it fits perfectly with his description of the law of sin. Furthermore, it wouldn't make any sense to interpret this verse as saying that we are not under God's Law, but then say in 6:15 that being under grace means that we are required to refrain from everything that God's Law revealed to be sin. In addition all of the surrounding context of 6:12-19 supports obedience to God's Law is not presenting ourselves is instruments of sin, but as instruments of righteousness.

I think we're in more agreement than disagreement concerning the correct definition of grace. Would you say that the general def. of grace as just the "unmerited favor of God" falls short? I do. I think that in every scripture you've presented above, that the better definition is one that portrays 'grace as THE POWER of God to accomplish/fulfil the truth demanded by God. I believe that nominal Christianity has watered grace down to being a greasy cover up from God, to allow forgiven sin in our lives. I believe we are called to a higher calling than that. I believe I am called to "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;"...and He never sinned.

Agreed. If I were to give you something, then it would be an unmerited favor, but the content of what I gave you would not itself be unmerited favor. I've also seen "grace" defined as "the power of God to overcome sin in our lives".

No Jesus didn't do away with 'the law' He nullified it to any who have come to Christ. It's purpose is to lead you to Christ.

GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).

Please clarify your distinction between nullifying the Law, but not doing away with it. The Law was given to instruct us how to walk in God's ways, so if the Law has been nullified, then God's ways have been nullified. In other words, if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness has changed, then God's righteousness has first changes, but God's righteousness is eternal and doesn't change (Psalms 119:142), so neither does God's instructs for how to act in accordance with His righteousness (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:11-14, it doesn't say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but to free us from all Lawlessness, which is so that we will be free to obey it in accordance with the example that he set for his followers to follow. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that we are called to be like Christ while rejecting the example that he set of obedience to the Law.

Have no more need of a tutor is not at all the same as having no more need for what they taught you. Disregarding everything that the tutor taught you after they left would be completely missing the whole point. When a student learns everything their 1st-grade teacher taught them and moves on to the 2nd grade, their new teacher doesn't tell them to forget everything they learned in 1st grade, but rather they built upon what they were previously taught. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher by word and by example, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways. Furthermore, the Spirit also has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Law brings us to Christ because it is all about him and how to have a relationship with him.

For one thing they were still under the law when Jesus instructed them....we aren't. I'd say Matt is an example of where he RAISED the standard for us to be HIGHER than 'the law'. Now "anger with your brother is equal to murder" in your heart.

Whenever Jesus quoted Scripture, he proceed it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard by taught by the teachers of the Law, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said. So in Matthew 5, Jesus was not teaching anything that was brand new, but rather he was fulfilling the Law by correcting what was incorrectly being taught about it. In Leviticus 19:17, we are commanded not to hate our brother, so Jesus violating Deuteronomy 4:2, but was simply teaching on what was already commanded. In any case, if we are required to live at a higher standard, then that is necessarily inclusive of meeting a lower standard, so we would still be required to obey the Law.

Has anyone, but Jesus, ever done it 'perfectly' to every neighbor? No, then fail in one point and you are guilty of the 'whole law'. As I said earlier, proving to you your need for Jesus our Savior.

While we should certainly seek to love our neighbor perfectly in accordance with Messiah's example, this verse does not say that we only fulfill the Law if we are able to obey it perfectly. It is true that we become a Lawbreaker when we break any part of the Law, but the consequence of that is not that we won't be justified, but that we need to repent and turn back to obedience. In James 2:1-10, he was encouraging them to do a better job of obeying law more consistently by not showing favoritism, so it would already be too late for them to have perfect obedience, and that is not the issue.

I'm going to stop Soyeong, I need to leave for church and this post is too long already. I wish we could 'sit and talk', I think we'd find we have much more in common than this format allows. But even if we didn't, there is nothing you or I believe that changes whether or not we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We just have different opinions on things which in and of themselves have neither the POWER to save nor condemn.

Have a good day. I like written communication because it gives me time think about what I want to say and how I want to say it without having to worry about being interrupted, but I do agree that sitting and talking also has its advantages, and I also agree that we have a number of important things in common.