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Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by lambofgod43985889, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Sproul was explaining "double predestination" which he subsequently proceeded to explain why that was in error. Here's the article.

    Dr. R.C. Sproul on double predestination
     
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  2. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    "When we considered in an earlier study our condition of original sin, we used the biblical metaphors of death and slavery. By nature we are born into this world DOA, dead on arrival, spiritually although alive biologically. We have no inclination whatsoever in our souls towards the things of God – no interest, no passion, no love. We are dead. Because we are spiritually dead, we are slaves to the sinful impulses and lusts that drive our behavior. We are not just participation in sin; such a description is far too weak. The Bible teaches us again and again that we are slaves to sin. Sin is not only in our nature, but it is our master"

    Again, you try to have your cake and eat it too. You say: "A reprobate does not have to act upon their wicked inclination to sin." And then quote Sproul, who makes it clear that they have no other choice. Which is it?
     
  3. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Double predestination is only consistent, You can't have some predestined to glory and pretend the others aren't predestined for destruction. It becomes hair splitting nonsense.
     
  4. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it seems Sproul is loath to take it that far, unlike consistent Calvinists... instead he concludes: "If God, when He is decreeing reprobation, does so in consideration of the reprobate’s being already fallen, then He does not coerce him to sin. To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin."

    A distinction without a difference...

    Here is a video where traditonalists debate hyper (or as I call them, consistent) calvinists. You might take note that the Calvinist actually scream that if God wants some one to commit adultery he orders them to do so. You can start it at about the 44:14 mark to see what I mean. To me this is blasphemy.
     
  5. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    (Now besides misrepresenting and misquoting what I said....)

    So what you are now saying is that God has no right to hold anyone accountable for their sin; because you believe He has caused them to sin!

    That would be the final result of "double predestination" according to your understanding of it.

    So, are people accountable for their sin or are they not? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  6. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I don't see that as "being the same thing"; but apparently I'm not going to convince you that your misrepresenting and misunderstanding the Biblical doctrine of election. You're convinced you have it "right" even when others explain to you that you don't. I can't help you.

    If you claim someone believes something that they deny believing; than you make a nonsensical assertion.

    But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
     
  7. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well first off my church is not calvinistic.
    Second I study the bible and teach from it. After almost 45 years, I think I have learned.

    Third you should learn the difference between positional truths and experiential truths.

    Gods will is sovereign in the universe! What God wills , will happen! God may allow sin to run its course for a season, but even that is according to the will of God! No one can resist the will of God. Romans 9 makes that clear!

    As for Gods drawinig power- no one can approach Christ unless they are drawn! NO where in Scripture will you find that someone can resist the soteriological drawing of God. Paul was set apart form the womb, Jeremiah before He was conceived, and believers are the chosen or elect from before Creation!

    Sayin men practice evil and God allows it to accomplish HIs will is not blasphemous- it is biblical! As it says in Isaiah- He even created evil for its purpose!

    God knew the fall of man before He created man-

    Even a believers sin ultimately works for his good! (Romans 8) That is not a license to sin, just simply a biblical fact! For ALL things work for the good!

    I Agree with you about living a holy life- that is living faith- that is the working out of our saving faith! the two though related are not the same! Now if someone makes a profession of faith but shows no changed- the bible has an answer for that and it is not that they lost their salvation!

    Romans 9-11 is about God will save all Jews at one point in time in the future that are alive! It is His covenant with the physical seed of Abraham! But Romans 9 is for all of us, not just Israel!

    Yes we are warned about using grace as a license to sin! but that falling away is not a loss of salvation, which if you read your bible instead of Armenian propaganda started byt eh first century Judiazers you would know that!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  8. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No,l election is based according to the good pleasure of His Will!

    romans 9:
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    It is God who prepared "afore"

    προετοιμάζω
    Transliteration
    proetoimazō
    Pronunciation
    pro-e-toi-mä'-zō πρό (G4253) and ἑτοιμάζω (G2090)
    Greek Inflections of προετοιμάζω προητοίμασεν — 2x
    Dictionary Aids
    Vine's Expository Dictionary: prepare afore (1x), before ordain (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. to prepare before, to make ready beforehand
    We have to sayt yes to Jesus- but we only can because He empowered us to do so!
     
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I watched most of this debate. The two men who were arguing from the "Calvinistic" view point were impatient and immature. How long had they been in the faith, that they were not well tempered at being able to control their emotions? I don't know? I chalk that up to immaturity in the faith. They also had some things theologically wrong; but, so did the other two guys.

    So, looking at their behavior in the light of the rest of the Scripture. God uses the imperfect things of the world to confound the wise. A good deal of what both of them said was "spot on" theologically (not all of it though). Compare OT saints and even Jesus's own behavior. There were times when Jesus yelled at pharisees and threw people out of the temple. All those used by God (even God incarnate Himself) are often a bit "off the wall". And the Scriptural explanation for Jesus's behavior was: "Zeal of Your house has eaten me up."

    So, I wouldn't necessarily condemn these men for their immaturity.

    I've also realized that the best and calmest explanation in the world isn't necessarily going to bring about a change in heart in someone whom God hasn't "woke" (or woke to that particular truth yet). We often have to leave it to "Let God be God" because He is sovereign.

    Now how does an all knowing, all powerful and every where present entity work in, around, through and even against the choices of creatures not operating as He designed, intended, purposed them to; that they even in their sin, by His providence still accomplish His will? Being creatures obviously limited by our finite nature; we'll probably never know.

    I've come to the conclusion that those who become redeemed are awakened by the Holy Ghost even before their will is aware of it.

    All humanity starts on even ground. All humanity is rightfully condemned. We are creatures subject to the affect of the fall; which separates us from God; plus we contend with our own sin. We have conscience though. We have things put in our existence by the merciful hand of God that constrain us. Sometimes He constrains us directly. Sometimes He doesn't and allows us to fulfill the lust of our own sin. All that being for His greater purpose.

    Yet He does not cause us to sin. All God has to do is remove His hand of restraint and we go off the rails all on our own. If that's not a demonstration of the will not being free; I don't know what would be. We must not confuse the concept of "free will" with a creature's ability to act independently of the desires of any other entity (God included). This doesn't just go for humanity either. Anyone who's trained animals knows exactly what I'm talking about. They have their own wills and they are frequently "disobedient".

    So the wages of sin is death. Sinners actually do have real choices as to whether or not to act upon the inclination of the fallen nature. If one exercises more restraint, they have earned a "lighter sentence". Now all who are condemned still pay their sentence; their only position of how light or heavy that sentence is was based on their choices. This is how all of humanity is accountable before God.

    This though is a different matter than those regenerated unto redemption. The redeemed being chosen (of chance) from the foundations of the world from among the lot of humanity rightfully condemned. This choice was made before the foundations of the world; none of us at that point never having done any good or evil. God possessing the knowledge of good and evil though; knew of and planned for the inevitability of the fall. And those who've won the greatest lottery in the world; are ever indebted to God for His demonstration of love.

    A love none of us deserve!

    And all God's people said: "AMEN"!
     
  10. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    Wow! Let's dissect that line by line.

    Why would your church not be Calvinistic when you are a Calvinist? Why have you compromised on your doctrine in being part of a church you don't agree with?

    45 years teaching the Bible can just result in more time perfecting defending heresy against Biblical Truth. You have learned and taught people to interpret the Bible through Calvinistic glasses and the Scriptures themselves witness against you and prove that your ism is not Biblical. I don't know why your church tolerates this either since it's not even Calvinistic.

    Your belief about sin being God's will makes the most heinous sins out to be God's will and that is indeed blasphemous. Not everything that happens is God's will and your supposed 45 years of Bible study ought to have taught you that. Have you never read Jeremiah 19:5 which so directly proves that all things that happen are not God's will? "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind"

    Romans 9 does not prove that no man can resist His will in the sense you are speaking of. It is speaking of how God has terms to be served on and woe to the man who strives with God and expects Him to save anyone on other terms. Paul refences Jeremiah 18 in Romans 9 when speaking of the clay and the potter- and Jeremiah 18 teaches the very opposite of Calvinism as it shows God giving men according to their choices and pleading with Judah and Jerusalem to save itself from judgment. They were resisting Hs will in that they would not obey Him- and they paid dearly for that! Likewise when Scripture says God is not mocked, it obviously doesn't mean that He cannot be mocked at, it means that God cannot be mocked without the mocker eventually being punished so severely that he will surely regret mocking Him.

    Of course no one can come to Christ without the drawing power of God. But that power is working on all men and men can indeed resist that. This "soteriological drawing" you are speaking of is just a made up Calvinist improvisational term because you cannot escape the fact over and over and over again in Scripture men do resist the Holy Spirit- and they would have been saved if they had not done so. How's this for soteriological drawing? "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." And yet most do not cooperate with God's grace, further proving that men resist God's will. You claim to have studied the Bible and taught it for 45 years. Why are you trying to pull the wool over my eyes as if I do not know this Scripture which you apparently also know. You lied to me about it not being in the Bible (unless you really do not know what the Bible says), when it is in the Bible.

    Paul said he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision he had of Christ (Acts 26:19) and he acknowledged that if he was unfaithful he could yet be damned in the end (1 Corinthians 9:27- and thought continues through 1 Corinthians 10 really). Throughout the Book of Jeremiah you see God speaking to Jeremiah as a man whose calling was conditional and his faithfulness and salvation was no guarantee. Individuals are not chosen or elect to salvation before Creation. The Bible never teaches such a thing. It teaches that Israel was chosen/elect as a nation to bring forth the ultimate chosen/elect Messiah; and that believers in Israel's Messiah are elect in relation to their living faith towards Him. What was predestined before Creation was the plan of redemption itself in the Messiah, not who would partake of that individually. "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;" (Titus 1:1-3 -same book where it is said shortly afterwards in 2:11-14 that the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching...)

    God can indeed allow evil that wasn't His will towards the end of accomplishing greater purposes. That thought in itself is not blasphemous. But you (in following Calvin) go further by saying that even the evil itself is God's will which He ordained and which men cannot resist- and that is indeed blasphemous. You reference Isaiah 45:7 to try to prove your blasphemous position, but you ought to know that "evil" in the context of Isaiah 45:7 is speaking of calamity (as opposed to peace). It is not speaking of God creating moral evil- Satan is the father of that! (John 8:44, etc)

    Saying that God knew the fall of man before He created man is not the same as saying He created evil or that He deliberately willed that mankind fall. These are not the same and you keep trying to equate them as the same.

    No, sin does not work out for anyone's good. Just reading Romans 8 as a whole proves that. Romans 8:28 is only teaching that God will cause circumstances to further the end-goal of becoming like Christ for those who love Him and have fallen line in line with His purpose (and anyone who truly surrenders to God and walks by a living faith in Christ is submitting to the process of being conformed to His image). Sin is by its very nature antithetical to that purpose.

    You are wrong. There is no distinction between a living faith and a saving faith. A faith that isn't living is dead- and a dead faith obviously cannot save anyone. The Bible knows of both people who profess Christ but were never born-again, as well as those who were born again and truly knew Him who later turned away from Him or refused to go further in following Him, and thus fell away. You cannot read Scriptures like Romans 11:22, Hebrews 3:12-15, 1 Corinthians 9:27-10:14, Revelation chapters 2 and 3, and many others honestly and say otherwise. The grace of God can indeed be received in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1 proves absolutely) and only those who endure to the end faithfully will ultimately be saved by grace (Matthew 24:9-13, 2 Peter 2:18-22, Jude 3 -7 etc).

    Romans 9 to 11 is not saying that God will save all Jews in the future because they are the seed of Abraham! It is teaching the very opposite! Just read the chapters in the context of R-mans and don't just single out individual verses and this is obvious. It is teaching that God has the right to work through any people group for His purposes and that individuals must fall in line with His working or they will be rejected because He is not obligated to save anyone because of their natural lineage. That is indeed a lesson for all of us. We have to run God's way in submission to God's plan of redemption. God isn't obligated to save Abraham's seed because of their lineage nor is He obligated to save us because of ours or because of anything about us which we might in our hearts uses as a substitute for faithful submission to Christ. Paul's exceeding longing for Israel to be saved at the beginning of chapter 9 would be madness if they were already secure because of Abraham and/or if election to salvation for individuals was already determined before the foundation of the world.

    Falling away is indeed a loss of salvation, it was not invented by the first century Judaizers, and it originates with Lucifer who fell away from the Lord by rebellion to His Government and thus secured his own damnation. It was taught by the Old Testament Prophets (Ezekiel chapter 18 for example), Jesus came not to destroy the Law nor the Prophets (Matthew 5:17-18), and thus Jesus and the Apostles preached about the possibility of such (as I already proved above). The 1st century Judaizers were actually offering people a false security through physical circumcision rather than through a living faith in Christ which is actually the intended purpose of the Law when it is used lawfully/rightfully. "5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

    To say that falling away is not a loss of salvation like you have said does indeed turn God's grace into a license for sin. "18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

    Congratulations, you are teaching just like the false teachers warned of above and are leading any who heed you into the very same false security that leads to sin and eternal damnation that is spoken of above.
     
  11. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    You haven't explained how it's not the same...sure I've read the explanations about the so called difference, but what does it matter if you go to hell because God didn't offer you salvation of if God ordered you to sin? You never had a real choice either way.
     
  12. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, people are accountable for their sin. I don't believe God causes anyone to sin, or that he renders it impossible for any individual to be saved, so I don't have the problem Calvinists do of making God the author of sin, either by force or by neglect.
     
  13. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    The lump of clay is Isreal, see Jeremiah 18. Yes, God endured with much suffering the disobedience of his people, so that he could bring salvation to the gentiles.

    “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
    and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

    26 and,

    “In the very place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]

    27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

    “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
    28 For the Lord will carry out
    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

    29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

    “Unless the Lord Almighty
    had left us descendants,
    we would have become like Sodom,
    we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]

    Israel’s Unbelief
    30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

    “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall,
    and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]

    When you actually read the whole passage, it becomes plain that what God prepared was the plan of salvation for all.
     
  14. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In some cases people believe in secret for many years until they are ready to make a public confession.
     
  15. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Yep, tough situations!
     
  16. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You've had several people (me included) explain this to you. You don't accept our explanations. Again, you assert that we believe things that we ourselves don't claim to believe.
     
  17. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not just us, all of Creation: "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. " Romans 8 20-21
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Well God creates people that do sin and HE knows they can, will and do sin, so why do that?
    If you design and then manufacturer defective engine components that you know will break under pressure, are you not then ultimately responsible? The engine maker knows some will last longer and some break sooner depending on their exposure to their environment (world), but knows they will all break eventually. I am not saying this is a good analogy because people make choices machined parts dont, but people make typical sinful choices when placed in circumstances that try them, so are somewhat machine like in their response to the environment they are placed into.

    There is also the idea of God letting men fill up the full measure of their sins, and then comes judgement from Him. God does that so judgement to all is made evident, that there is no doubt to any other observer that justice was deserved.

    I sense you think God creates the universe, then lets it run on its own to see what will happen, sort of a universe experiment.
     
  19. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

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    I don't think it matters which religion we belong to. I was baptized a Catholic but have never followed Catholicism since I was around 12 years old. I class myself as having no denomination. I work with a number of religions and we all seem to be on the same wavelength. If you accept Christ and are a Christian you should be able to relate to anyone from another religion of the fundamental beliefs and values of Christianity. The rest is just decoration. I liken it to followers of a sport like football where there are many different clubs which have their own way of doing things but they all believe in the game of football.
     
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  20. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Well, until someone explains how there is any real world difference between ordaining all man's sins and causing all mans sin, which none of you have been able to do...
     
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