we are ALL PREDESTINED

[JIMINZ]

Yet if you have no idea if you are one of the elect; than praying is not absurd. So.... what makes you think the elect would automatically know that they are?

All of the Elect in Christ have Belly Buttons, those who call themselves Christians and don't have a Belly Button, never were saved.

 

[The Righterzpen]

All of the Elect in Christ have Belly Buttons, those who call themselves Christians and don't have a Belly Button, never were saved.

That was a stupid response. Can't you think harder than that?

 

[JIMINZ]

Hmmmm
Are all of these Whsoever's only the ELECT?


Mar. 8:34,35
34) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[JIMINZ]

That was a stupid response. Can't you think harder than that?

It was better than most, but yeah I can, but nobody believes what I say anyway, If you want proof, go back and read my former responses.
Get back with me

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We need all that but what we don't have from Jesus that we need an exegesis from, in ordet to apply a universal hermeneutic to so we can apply it to any who might be potentially saved.

There is such a better way to get to the heart of Rom. 8, Eph. 1 and other aspects of predestination.

I am beginning to wonder if predestination has been corrupted by the fatalistic Islamic view of destiny. The Islamic view is that if it is the destiny of a person to be such and such, then it cannot be changed and it has to happen no matter what, and personal choice has nothing to do with it. But I am not sure that the predestination of God is as fatalistic as that.

I agree that it is in the plan of God that everyone is given the invitation to receive Christ, and is not willing that any should perish but has eternal life. But the reality is that multitudes have perished and are perishing because they will not accept the gospel invitation. Although the Scripture says, "For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’sdesire or effort, but on God’s mercy" (Romans 9:15-16), I suspect that the Holy Spirit works on everyone to point them to Christ, but some reject His prompting and therefore shut themselves off from God's mercy.

Actually, that Scripture destroys the Arminian position which says that salvation is gained by man's choice alone. In actual fact, the preaching of the gospel remains as just words without the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through it to the hearts of the listeners. The problem with many churches that preach the gospel and don't see any conversions to Christ, is that they are not in a place where the Holy Spirit can speak through the preaching.

If the Holy Spirit is not present with any spiritual duty, such as prayer, preaching, etc., then there is no power in them. The Scripture says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe. But if a church or meeting environment is such that there is a lack of holiness and true commitment to Christ and a lack of sanctification, the Holy Spirit withdraws, and any preach is just empty words, even when quoting Scripture. The Scripture itself is just the dead letter without the accompanying voice of the Spirit speaking to the heart as it is preached. This is why many Evangelistic projects and enterprises fail.

It is not enough for a church to come together and pretend that the Holy Spirit is present. The evidence that the power of the Holy Spirit is present is that souls are saved, not that people have goosebumps, feelings of wellbein, or manifestations like jerking, shaking, falling down, or any other emotional or sensory manifestation.

I have just completed 23 years of being involved in a church which is more like a "club" than the type of church where the Holy Spirit would want to be involved. In all that time, there has been not one real conversion to Christ. Therefore I have to conclude that the Holy Spirit has not be present in any of the meetings, because the evidence of His presence is just not been there. Because of that, the leadership may have to look deeper into why there is not real power in the preaching. One of the reasons I think is that for many years, a regular member was a high-ranking officer in the Masonic Lodge. That would keep the Holy Spirit well away from that church.

So, God may have predestined that the church was the type of of church that showed the power of the Holy Spirit in its preaching of the gospel through souls being saved through its ministry, but because of factors blocking the presence and work of the Holy Spirit, His work of grace could be being frustrated until things are put right.

So, I believe that instead of God's predestination being fatalistic, it can be frustrated by the disobedience of those whom He is calling, and therefore those ones cannot be chosen because they are hardening their hearts against the prompting of the Spirit. The Scripture says, "Today, if you hear His voice, don't harden your hearts."

 

[sdowney717]

I am beginning to wonder if predestination has been corrupted by the fatalistic Islamic view of destiny. The Islamic view is that if it is the destiny of a person to be such and such, then it cannot be changed and it has to happen no matter what, and personal choice has nothing to do with it. But I am not sure that the predestination of God is as fatalistic as that.

I agree that it is in the plan of God that everyone is given the invitation to receive Christ, and is not willing that any should perish but has eternal life. But the reality is that multitudes have perished and are perishing because they will not accept the gospel invitation. Although the Scripture says, "For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’sdesire or effort, but on God’s mercy" (Romans 9:15-16), I suspect that the Holy Spirit works on everyone to point them to Christ, but some reject His prompting and therefore shut themselves off from God's mercy.

Actually, that Scripture destroys the Arminian position which says that salvation is gained by man's choice alone. In actual fact, the preaching of the gospel remains as just words without the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through it to the hearts of the listeners. The problem with many churches that preach the gospel and don't see any conversions to Christ, is that they are not in a place where the Holy Spirit can speak through the preaching.

If the Holy Spirit is not present with any spiritual duty, such as prayer, preaching, etc., then there is no power in them. The Scripture says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe. But if a church or meeting environment is such that there is a lack of holiness and true commitment to Christ and a lack of sanctification, the Holy Spirit withdraws, and any preach is just empty words, even when quoting Scripture. The Scripture itself is just the dead letter without the accompanying voice of the Spirit speaking to the heart as it is preached. This is why many Evangelistic projects and enterprises fail.

It is not enough for a church to come together and pretend that the Holy Spirit is present. The evidence that the power of the Holy Spirit is present is that souls are saved, not that people have goosebumps, feelings of wellbein, or manifestations like jerking, shaking, falling down, or any other emotional or sensory manifestation.

I have just completed 23 years of being involved in a church which is more like a "club" than the type of church where the Holy Spirit would want to be involved. In all that time, there has been not one real conversion to Christ. Therefore I have to conclude that the Holy Spirit has not be present in any of the meetings, because the evidence of His presence is just not been there. Because of that, the leadership may have to look deeper into why there is not real power in the preaching. One of the reasons I think is that for many years, a regular member was a high-ranking officer in the Masonic Lodge. That would keep the Holy Spirit well away from that church.

So, God may have predestined that the church was the type of of church that showed the power of the Holy Spirit in its preaching of the gospel through souls being saved through its ministry, but because of factors blocking the presence and work of the Holy Spirit, His work of grace could be being frustrated until things are put right.

So, I believe that instead of God's predestination being fatalistic, it can be frustrated by the disobedience of those whom He is calling, and therefore those ones cannot be chosen because they are hardening their hearts against the prompting of the Spirit. The Scripture says, "Today, if you hear His voice, don't harden your hearts."

Dont over complicate election and predestination.
Your natural mind may recoil at the thought that God chooses those He has foreknown as His because He loves them with His great love and leaves the others to experience His judgement.
But scripture clearly says God tells Moses he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion. It's clearly his choice to be merciful and love some while not being merciful or love someone else. If you think he has love, mercy, compassion on all people then your highly in error.

All things work to the good of those who love God, who are the called according to His purposes.
We only love the TRUE God because He loved US (who end up believing ) first.
They do that because he re-writes their hearts and minds, puts his laws into their hearts by making them born of God first, then they can perceive the kingdom, be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ.
Unsaved People, not born of God, do love their false gods and worship the false gods, false christs with great devotion.

That is what Christ meant by God giving them to Him His children as believers, that they WILL come to him because of God's choice, not that its just a possibility.

In John 6, Jesus tells us why people don't believe, and why they do.
Lots of people seem to read scripture and don't pay attention to what is being said.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.


Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Dont over complicate election and predestination.
Your natural mind may recoil at the thought that God chooses those He has foreknown as His because He loves them with His great love and leaves the others to experience His judgement.
But scripture clearly says God tells Moses he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion. It's clearly his choice to be merciful and love some while not being merciful or love someone else. If you think he has love, mercy, compassion on all people then your highly in error.

All things work to the good of those who love God, who are the called according to His purposes.
We only love the TRUE God because He loved US (who end up believing ) first.
They do that because he re-writes their hearts and minds, puts his laws into their hearts by making them born of God first, then they can perceive the kingdom, be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ.
Unsaved People, not born of God, do love their false gods and worship the false gods, false christs with great devotion.

That is what Christ meant by God giving them to Him His children as believers, that they WILL come to him because of God's choice, not that its just a possibility.

In John 6, Jesus tells us why people don't believe, and why they do.
Lots of people seem to read scripture and don't pay attention to what is being said.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.


Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

It is just wonderful that I have been predestined to believe the gospel and to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and given saving faith to receive Christ as my Saviour. It is also great that I am predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

It is just wonderful that I have been predestined to believe the gospel and to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and given saving faith to receive Christ as my Saviour. It is also great that I am predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

It is truly wonderful and true altogether what God has done for US,

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

DUH, the person doing the praying fervently has already acquired Redemption.

Or possibly just being called.

Parable Of The Seed
Don't fall away.
Study the Word.
Don't be the seed planted on rocky ground.
M-Bob

 

[corinth77777]

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

The question is where is one predestined?

 

[corinth77777]

Ephesians 1;5-9

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 1;5-9

Written only to His saints, who are of God, whom He has individually predestined, that is He chose US personally in Him before the foundation of the world. The Church is the called out ones, whom Jesus says He chose out of the world.

in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ:

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him

10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,]

11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[corinth77777]

Or, maybe predestination simply means that from God's perspective, He knows the outcome. Since we don't however, we are told to choose. But I do believe that the Catholic will be a Catholic, and the Jew a Jew, and a Baptist a Baptist and that, in the end.... what we will finally look like is somewhere in between them all.

The question of any of these groups is....are they in Christ?
Because if they are Christ would be the only religion....
Those He chose were chosen having been in Christ....that is the place He chose them from. Being in Christ Destroys all other religions...
Therefore rightly understood...I disagree with the statement...Because I was under the Baptist traditional thinking...but I sm no longer...I'd rather see myself as a follower of Christ...for either you do what He says or you don't.

Question is what are you faithful to? Ideals about God.....or faithful in doing what He said?

Chapter 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[mark kennedy]

Predestination has always been like salvation itself, what are you saved from and what are you saved for. Predestination is what you are saved for and it's called God's comminicable attributes, virtue, holiness, a pure heart. As opposed to omniscience wherr God would know the name of everyone who would be saved before creating the world. One reason the subject serms odd is creation, which is essential doctrine, is never explored as formal doctrine anymore, Only natiral theology.

Then predrstination itself gets passed off as fate, that's personal fate, withoit even a passing reference to God's divine attributes or eternal nature. The Scriptures are quickly dismissed and the conversation descends into circles, riddled with random opinions and idle jabs.

Predestination as Paul describes it is God's plans for us (the church), he made before the foundation of the world. Between believing Israel and the body of Gentile believers added to the covenant, by means the faith, once and for all delivered to the saints.

Predestination as it's discussed on these boards does not exist in Scripture. It's tiresome to see such a relentless diversion to the gospel given so much pointless attention.

 

[renniks]

You as well as everyone else has missed the point, Romans 9 is about Gods' Sovereignty, He is God no matter what you might think or believe, He can and does do in this world as HE pleases and doesn't have to ask our permission to do it.

Of course He is God and can do as he pleases. The question here is what pleases him in regards to soteriology, what has he done, not what he could do. God has worked out the plan of salvation through a rebellious people, who he really should and could have wiped out because of their continued disobedience. He is a personal God who works one on one with selected members of his people, to preserve a remnant, and then, he does what no aloof deity would do, he becomes one of them, one of us, in order to save us from ourselves, and he only requires faith as a condition for salvation. Paul's conclusion to the great story that leads to the redemption of all who will, is not: "God picks some to be saved irresistibly and leaves the rest to die in their filth."

Instead, it's a call for the gospel to go out to all:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

And continued confirmation that God loves all and wants all to follow him:
. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[renniks]

Yet if you have no idea if you are one of the elect; than praying is not absurd. So.... what makes you think the elect would automatically know that they are?

If some are destined for damnation and some for salvation from their mother's womb, praying or not praying is of no use whatsoever. Whatever will be will be.

 

[zoidar]

If some are destined for damnation and some for salvation from their mother's womb, praying or not praying is of no use whatsoever. Whatever will be will be.

I think Calvinst's believe also our praying is predestined and if our prayers will be answered is predestined. If you choose to not pray then I quess that's been predestined...

 

[Ken Rank]

The question of any of these groups is....are they in Christ?
Because if they are Christ would be the only religion....
Those He chose were chosen having been in Christ....that is the place He chose them from. Being in Christ Destroys all other religions...
Therefore rightly understood...I disagree with the statement...Because I was under the Baptist traditional thinking...but I sm no longer...I'd rather see myself as a follower of Christ...for either you do what He says or you don't.

Question is what are you faithful to? Ideals about God.....or faithful in doing what He said?

Chapter 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Greetings Cori. When we read the OT, the name of the group of people that belong to God is called Israel. We tend to think of them all as "Jews" but that is a cultural thing that I can explain in another thread on another day. When we get to the NT, that hasn't changed. Those who belong to Christ are also Israel... not a replacement, just part of the family of God known as Israel. Hebrews 8:8-11 states that the NC is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. The New Jerusalem comes down and there are 12 Gates, one for each tribe of Israel. No gentile is mentioned in either scenario, as a "gentile" is a pagan and by definition a pagan follows false gods. This is why Paul said in Ephesians 2, that we WERE gentiles in the flesh and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. We cease being a gentile when we become part of Israel. That is how it is now, that is how it was at Sinai when those gentiles/strangers/foreigners who came out of Egypt with Israel were to be treated as native born and the law was given to them as well.

All that to say... the true religion is just being part of the family of God, period. It isn't an institution known as the church or Christianity, nor it is the same known as Judaism. We simply become part of a family, of a nation, and begin to walk according to the standards of that group to which we now belong.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[joshua 1 9]

I certainly don't think anyone who isn't a religious Christian is predestined to hell.

I believe that Salvation is 100% based on the Blood of Jesus. It would not matter if you were a Muslim. If you are washed and cleansed in the Blood of Jesus then you are going to be saved.

 

[joshua 1 9]

if our prayers will be answered is predestined.

We have to pray according to the will of God. If we pray for what He wants to give us then we know we will receive what we are asking from Him.

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him." 1John5:14,15