we are ALL PREDESTINED

Bobber

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well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

Actually an interesting way you've put some of this.

If all things have been predestined that would have to mean God wanted a spirit of division within his own body the church. Of course that would be ludicrous as Jesus told us a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Mark 3:34

And also Jesus prayer states,

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
John 17:20

Jesus saw the need to pray for this. We know the prayer of a righteous man avails much James 5:16 . If Calvinsitic teaching was correct Jesus would have known that God's will would have automatically occurred. Than why even pray it? He didn't say, "Thank you Father they will be this way because you ordained it" he prayed rather that it would be this way.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I dont really agree with this. Jews have converted to Christianity, Chrjstians have converted to Judiasm, Catholics have become Protestants and Protestants have become Catholics and before I became a Protestant I was an Athiest. God did not predestine our religion and then said "Okay now you'll be in this religion for forever." What Paul and the Bible says is that he predestined our salvation. In other words he knew everybody who would be saved before he formed the universe and he didnt hand pick people and say "mine" but he picked everyone who would come to love and accept him and said "mine". Hope that makes sense.
 
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Bobber

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When we speak of the predestination of the saved and the unsaved, we mean that God chose to show his grace to a few for nothing he saw in them, simply out of his own free will, but the rest he leaves to themselves to be judged on their own sin.

With all due respect though that way of assessing things isn't just and God is JUST. True justice would mean the law and it's ramifications for breaking it MUST apply to ALL. Nobody in the REAL WORLD would deny that's not the truth. What do we hear much of?...there's a law for the rich and a law for the poor. Meaning what? Different standards are being applied to different people. We even hear the term, "Justice is
blind"

images.jpg


Nobody can I think really deny that a system like that can be TRULY JUST. Problem is when we take some of these simple basic principles in a religious setting some consider normal ways of thinking about words about and concepts have a right to totally change. Not so.

Whereas God is active in bringing some sinners to salvation, he is inactive to the others in leaving the rest to be damned. He is not obligated to save anyone, we all deserve to be punished.

But you're leaving out of the equation that people are born into this world at no fault of their own having a sinful nature. No fault of their own means just that...NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. However when God has provided salvation for all and people willingly choose to reject it such than becomes FAULT OF THEIR OWN.
 
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joshua 1 9

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There is a three-fold meaning to the letters to the seven churches, one being they represent church ages from Ephesus, the 1st century, to Laodecia. This may be the last church age before Jesus comes again.
Everything has many layers of meaning. Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lamp stands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lamp stands which you saw are the seven churches."

The seven churches represent seven angels and seven lamp stands. All of the true churches today represent one of these seven.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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There is no true justice if some are forced to be saved and others are forced to not be saved. For why else would there be a judgment? Is God going to judge men for something they had no control over? It makes no sense. Men have to be responsible for their choice in either choosing God in this life. If not, then this life is meaningless.
 
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nolidad

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God's chosen (i.e. elect) are all those who meet His conditions of repentance and faith in Christ. The Bible never speaks about God choosing individuals before the foundation of the world to heaven or hell. What God chose before the foundation of the world was His gracious and appropriate plan to send His Son to redeem sinners to Himself and restore them to His image. All who meet the conditions to partake in this plan are chosen (i.e. elect) due to their faithful identification with THE Chosen One, Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:4-11 "4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul"

John 3:17-20 "17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

John 3:35-36 "35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

You are incorrect as to what Scripture says!

Ephesians 1:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He chose (eklegomai)(aorist middle indicative) meaning He decided by Himself to elect us before He created us!

He also predestinated us (pro horizo mark out in advance )

Why did He do this? Is it because we maintained being good doobies? No! "according to the good pleasure of his will," He did it because it pleased HIm to do it!
 
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nolidad

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The Jewish Believers of the First Church, were the ones spoken of as being the Chosen, the Elect.

These two terms do not relate to Gentiles at all.

that would be incorrect! ephesius and corinth and rome ar gentile loaded churches and they were called predestined, foreknown, elect.
 
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nolidad

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Hi Mark,

I do think some are predestined, but others are in God's foreknowledge. Everyone in the genealogy to Noah was predestined, and then Shem's line to Abraham and Isaac. Jacob was predestined, but not Esau. The whole Jewish nation was predestined, but not the Edomites. David was predestined to be King, but not Saul, David's predecessor. The apostles were predestined including Judas so that prophecy could be fulfilled.

When you read the first chapter of Ephesians I see the "predestined" Paul is talking about is his people, the Jews to whom the message of the righteousness of God and the Messiah came.

Have you ever thought about it like that?

You misunderstand what God's foreknowledge means! It is the word pro-ginosko and means known ahead of time. Not in how people are going to respond, but in that God knows what He is going to do!

It is like a doctor when He gives a prognosis (english word for the same) he can do that because He knows what He is going to do and is assured of its outcome! While doctors can be wrong- God is never wrong when He knows what He is going to do in advance.

Also it is like taking a long road trip. You know you are going to get there because with a GPS you marked your trip in advance! It is God knowing what He will do not what we will do!
 
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PaulCyp1

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Why would God "predestine" someone to be a member of an unauthorized manmade denominational church He never intended to exist? God's intention was obviously that all people would be members of the one Church He Himself founded for us, which He said was to remain one, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth? Denominational churches have rejected His Church, and therefore His will.
 
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sdowney717

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Every human is destined for Hell....

All religions are man made and, as a result, are flawed.

Christ told us to believe that He is the savior, turn from our ways, follow Him, believe on His name...

That is what brings salvation to your soul.. NOT being Catholic, not going to church, not being Baptist or Pentecostal... NOT taking communion of the actual flesh and blood....not being orthodox or evangelical...

Believing that Christ is your savior and you are a sinner that needs salvation....
Certainly that is true if it were not for the intervention of the Holy Spirit making us born again.
We are not born of God by our choice, but by His.
In-fact, as Ephesians 2 says, he made us alive when we were following after the devil, conforming our ways to the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and were like children of wrath as the others.
But God had a different plan for us, and that is why we believe in His Son. By grace are you saved.
Not because of your faith did He make you alive, because a Satan follower has no faith in Christ.

People should reread this and really think some more on what is going on here. There is no mention of a voluntary conversion therapy going on prior to being made alive. IT specifically say HE made us alive only for the great love He had for US, and not the others.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
 
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CharismaticLady

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You misunderstand what God's foreknowledge means! It is the word pro-ginosko and means known ahead of time. Not in how people are going to respond, but in that God knows what He is going to do!

It is like a doctor when He gives a prognosis (english word for the same) he can do that because He knows what He is going to do and is assured of its outcome! While doctors can be wrong- God is never wrong when He knows what He is going to do in advance.

Also it is like taking a long road trip. You know you are going to get there because with a GPS you marked your trip in advance! It is God knowing what He will do not what we will do!

Sorry, I don't believe God forces someone to go to hell by His GPS. That's a heinous belief. We are made in His image and He has given us sovereignty over our choices. It is not God's will for any to perish. We do that all on our own. He has provided the way of escape - Jesus and His gift of His sinless Spirit.
 
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renniks

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We are predestined for salvation, yet we can fall away. Thoughts...
Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23;)
Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).

Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ). ( The Corporate View of Election)
 
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JIMINZ

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We are predestined for salvation, yet we can fall away. Thoughts...

That is a contradictory statement if I have ever heard one.

In Gods' wisdom what do you think would be His purpose in Predestinating someone to Salvation just to let them at some future date to walk away from it.

What a weak God that would be.
 
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JIMINZ

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Sorry, I don't believe God forces someone to go to hell by His GPS. That's a heinous belief. We are made in His image and He has given us sovereignty over our choices. It is not God's will for any to perish. We do that all on our own. He has provided the way of escape - Jesus and His gift of His sinless Spirit.

I am not contradicting you for your statements, I just felt it was time everyone understood there is Scripture which speaks directly to this issue of Predestination that no one has even mentioned up until this moment.

It is very important for us to understand that "GOD IS SOVEREIGN" meaning this whole thing including us (human beings) He Created for His Purpose.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

So then in all of our debating the subject,
Who is able to Question Gods' ways?
 
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JIMINZ

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that would be incorrect! ephesius and corinth and rome ar gentile loaded churches and they were called predestined, foreknown, elect.

I don't mean to be argumentative but the verses which you have in mind that you base your statements on would be helpful.

I know what your saying is true about Ephesus, Corinth, Rome I just need to see the context in order to be able to fully understand what was being said at the time.
 
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JIMINZ

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I have a question, who is Paul talking to here? I bet you think this verse is addressed to us.

Why Paul is speaking to the Church at Rome, which was predominately Gentile, he was explaining to them that our God is a Sovereign God, I believe God from the time of those statement from Paul about Him has not changed one wit, therefore to answer your question, YES, but while Paul did not directly address these verses to us, he is speaking to all Christians of all time, his statements were not time sensitive, there is no expiration date on Gods' being Sovereign.

Thanks for the comment.
 
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zoidar

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That is a contradictory statement if I have ever heard one.

In Gods' wisdom what do you think would be His purpose in Predestinating someone to Salvation just to let them at some future date to walk away from it.

What a weak God that would be.

I believe the Bible teaches this. To me it"s not contradictory. I don't see a weak God, I see a wise God.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I am not contradicting you for your statements, I just felt it was time everyone understood there is Scripture which speaks directly to this issue of Predestination that no one has even mentioned up until this moment.

It is very important for us to understand that "GOD IS SOVEREIGN" meaning this whole thing including us (human beings) He Created for His Purpose.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

So then in all of our debating the subject,
Who is able to Question Gods' ways?

Jim, Romans 9-11 is about Israel. They WERE predestined to be God's chosen people through whom the Messiah would be born. But even though they were God's elect, not all of them were saved were they? Some rejected Christ, their Messiah, and whosoever of us Gentiles could accept Christ instead. Predestination doesn't mean a group has no free will of their own.
 
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