we are ALL PREDESTINED

[ajcarey]

One sentence in and I know there is no use in going any further with you, your eyes you have closed that you would not see, and your ears you have shut that you would not understand.

What I see is that You, Righterzpen, and Jonaitis all believe the same thing, the only things you are arguing about are the details, the mechanics of your shared Doctrines.

Calvin was wrong, both he and you as well as them have all assumed the Elect are all Christians, (Regardless) you just can't accept what he says about Predestination, while you on the other hand have a completely different take on it, it is all semantics to you guys.

Well, that's just not true. You have no warrant to say what you've said. I don't believe anyone was elect before the foundation of the world, I believe the elect can cease living by faith and become reprobate, and I renounce all 5 points of Calvinism. You have formed an unjust conclusion and no one who has honestly read through this thread could agree with you. I believe that Israel was God's elect nation to bring forth the Messiah; and that Israel's election rested on Israel's Messiah who is the Ultimate Elect One. Those who believe in and follow Him by faith are elect in Him. Romans 11:7 which you brought up yourself proves this, as does Colossians 3:12. Such a faith is still founded on the Scriptural principles God established through Israel as a nation; and Christ's Church itself was founded by Jewish Christians as a spiritual Israel which later came to add gentiles as the Gospel went forth to all nations. These entered into the very same faith and the very same promises as those original Jewish Christians did through believing in the God of Israel. I don't know how or why you are trying to split the hair you are trying to split, but unless you can tell me how and why Romans 11:7 and Colossians 3:12 don't apply to gentile Christians I can't receive your point without ignoring Scripture.

 

[ajcarey]

Do you believe you are wicked in need of repentance and bankrupt of faith?

No

 

[JIMINZ]

Well, that's just not true. You have no warrant to say what you've said. I don't believe anyone was elect before the foundation of the world, I believe the elect can cease living by faith and become reprobate, and I renounce all 5 points of Calvinism. You have formed an unjust conclusion and no one who has honestly read through this thread could agree with you. I believe that Israel was God's elect nation to bring forth the Messiah; and that Israel's election rested on Israel's Messiah who is the Ultimate Elect One. Those who believe in and follow Him by faith are elect in Him. Romans 11:7 which you brought up yourself proves this, as does Colossians 3:12. Such a faith is still founded on the Scriptural principles God established through Israel as a nation; and Christ's Church itself was founded by Jewish Christians as a spiritual Israel which later came to add gentiles as the Gospel went forth to all nations. These entered into the very same faith and the very same promises as those original Jewish Christians did through believing in the God of Israel. I don't know how or why you are trying to split the hair you are trying to split, but unless you can tell me how and why Romans 11:7 and Colossians 3:12 don't apply to gentile Christians I can't receive your point without ignoring Scripture.

I didn't just give you verses which say Elect like you had done, I gave you the reasons even highlighting them in red and blue in order for you to be able to understand the specific point of those verses but you ignore Scripture, so that is all there is to say, you choose to be ignorant of the truth which would open up a lot of other understanding, but that is your choice.

As far as my point on your beliefs, you as Calvin believe that All Christians even those of today are the Elect, both him and you are wrong.

 

[JIMINZ]

I don't believe anyone was elect before the foundation of the world,

Another position for your being wrong.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[ajcarey]

Another position for your being wrong.

You agree with Calvin on that one then. And you said already said there's no point in going further, and yet you keep going further. What is it going to be?

 

[JIMINZ]

You agree with Calvin on that one then. And you said already said there's no point in going further, and yet you keep going further. What is it going to be?

Scripture says it, but you aren't interested what Scripture says, it's what you want to believe is all that matters.

You keep making these off the wall statements, that can't just lay there as though they are accepted as truth can they?

It isn't a matter of agreeing with Calvin, Calvin wasn't completely wrong on everything he ever said.

 

[ajcarey]

Scripture says it, but you aren't interested what Scripture says, it's what you want to believe is all that matters.

You keep making these off the wall statements, that can't just lay there as though they are accepted as truth can they?

It isn't a matter of agreeing with Calvin, Calvin wasn't completely wrong on everything he ever said.

Colossians 3:12 and Romans 11:7- Do they apply to gentile Christians or not? Answer coherently and honestly or I'm done talking to you.

 

[JIMINZ]

Colossians 3:12 and Romans 11:7- Do they apply to gentile Christians or not? Answer coherently and honestly or I'm done talking to you.

Everything I have attempted to share with you about who the Elect actually are, has all been both coherent and honestly set forth, you just won't accept it as such, you are so set in the Doctrine which you were taught, you refuse to accept anything other than whatever reinforces that Doctrine.

Who are these verses speaking of the Jewish Believers, the Gentile Believers or Both and why

Rom 11:25-28
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[JIMINZ]

Colossians 3:12 and Romans 11:7- Do they apply to gentile Christians or not? Answer coherently and honestly or I'm done talking to you.

GREEK
ELECT:
G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
(in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

GREEK
ELECTION:
G1589
ἐκλογή
eklogē
ek-log-ay'
From G1586; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely): - chosen, election.

GREEK
CHOSEN:
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.


From these verses below we can come to two conclusions.
1) Calvin was correct about Predestination of the Elect, ie, all Christians both Jew and Gentile of all time.
2) Or that the Predestination of the Elect only pertains to the Jews of that time.

Eph 1:3-6
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[JIMINZ]

I showed the Bible verses proving that God's elect and chosen refer to more than the first Jewish church.

First, I never mentioned anything about a First Jewish Church, I said that the First Jewish Believers were the ELECT and not the Gentiles as you suppose you are one -->(Elect)

Calling yourself one of the Elect denotes, this Election, Choosing actually took place in time past, before your receiving of this Gift of Grace from God.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Doesn't this now mean you are a believer of the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination if your belief is, you are one of the Chosen Elect?

 

[Dave L]

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

Everything is just as God planned. You cannot change the future anymore than you can change history. “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” Ephesians 1:11 (NASB95)

 

[The Righterzpen]

No

OK, well if you don't believe you are in need of repentance and faith; there's nothing I can say, seeing how you don't believe you need redemption.

 

[JacksBratt]

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

Every human is destined for Hell....

All religions are man made and, as a result, are flawed.

Christ told us to believe that He is the savior, turn from our ways, follow Him, believe on His name...

That is what brings salvation to your soul.. NOT being Catholic, not going to church, not being Baptist or Pentecostal... NOT taking communion of the actual flesh and blood....not being orthodox or evangelical...

Believing that Christ is your savior and you are a sinner that needs salvation....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never understood if I was predestined to like Taylor Swift (and cats).

Right now, she is a pretty robot (unless she repents). She looks pretty on the outside, but she is not pretty on the inside. She is against Christian values, and even insults them in her videos. For me, a woman has to love God to be attractive. If not, they are not a real woman at all. They are hollow and empty inside.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First, I never mentioned anything about a First Jewish Church, I said that the First Jewish Believers were the ELECT and not the Gentiles as you suppose you are one -->(Elect)

Calling yourself one of the Elect denotes, this Election, Choosing actually took place in time past, before your receiving of this Gift of Grace from God.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Doesn't this now mean you are a believer of the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination if your belief is, you are one of the Chosen Elect?

Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11 is primarily talking about the salvation of Israel. It talks about salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Messiah for all, and how they (Israel, as a nation) needs to accept that fact.

 

[JacksBratt]

Right now, she is a pretty robot (unless she repents). She looks pretty on the outside, but she is not pretty on the inside. She is against Christian values, and even insults them in her videos. For me, a woman has to love God to be attractive. If not, they are not a real woman at all. They are hollow and empty inside.

Just another tool, used by Satan, to feed unrighteous motives and values to a sleeping youth who are indoctrinated as they listen to the music of these robotic minions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just another tool, used by Satan, to feed unrighteous motives and values to a sleeping youth who are indoctrinated as they listen to the music of these robotic minions.

We need to pray for them and love them with the love of Christ to reach them.

 

[renniks]

What did Jesus mean by this statement?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

Actually, what about this passage a little before it?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." - John 6:37-39

You can read the context if you want.

It appears that God influences the choices of some to believe and be saved. Wouldn't that mean the rest are purposed to be damned?

When I read these in context, I always find that they are conditional promises. There is a strange thing that Calvinists do. They will read an entire sermon, and then take one or two verses out of context, to try to prove something that isn't in there. Jesus is preaching to the Jews, and he's being very evangelical. He gives them everything they need to know to be saved, even though he knows that most of them are just there to argue. The whole reason to point them to the Father, is that they had the Torah, that showed them what God was like, and yet they did not recognize that Jesus was God. That's why he tells them that everyone that has heard from God and learned from him comes to Jesus. They had heard from God but they refused to learn, because they think salvation is earned through keeping the law. Why go to all this trouble to tell them all this, if their damnation is assured? He's telling them because he knows later some of them will remember his words and be saved after his resurrection.

 

[renniks]

Now I know that's hard for us to wrap our heads around; but the qualities of being all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present, immortal, immutable and from everlasting to everlasting are what make God - God.

I don't find immutability compatible with a biblical picture of God. While God's attributes surely do not change, the incarnation proves that it is possible for God to experience something new. The unmoved mover is a being from Greek philosophy, not scripture.

 

[renniks]

Redemption is the operation of the Holy Ghost awakening a sinner and that awakened state causes a positive reaction to God's grace (thus in one sense making it "irresistible grace").

You have never seen awakened people who went back to their former un awakened state? I keep saying I would like to experience some of this irresistible grace I keep hearing about. People quite often do resist the Spirit, in fact, the unforgivable sin is to resist to the point where one can no longer hear the Spirit's call.