we are ALL PREDESTINED

[CharismaticLady]

There are seven churches that we read about in the book of Rev. However many churches there are, they are going to be one of those seven. Judaism has a different covenant with God. We are under the New Covenant based on better promises. We are the Bride, they are the friend of the Bridegroom.

There is a three-fold meaning to the letters to the seven churches, one being they represent church ages from Ephesus, the 1st century, to Laodecia. This may be the last church age before Jesus comes again.

 

[renniks]

Predestination means that God was in charge of your salvation from start to finish.

Would that not mean he was also in charge of every unbelievers damnation?

 

[Jonaitis]

Would that not mean he was also in charge of every unbelievers damnation?

Well, words mean different things to different people. If we are on the same page, then I would say 'yes,' but likely you aren't so it would be a 'no.' When we speak of the predestination of the saved and the unsaved, we mean that God chose to show his grace to a few for nothing he saw in them, simply out of his own free will, but the rest he leaves to themselves to be judged on their own sin. Whereas God is active in bringing some sinners to salvation, he is inactive to the others in leaving the rest to be damned. He is not obligated to save anyone, we all deserve to be punished. So was he in charge as in purposing the reprobate to be damned? Yes. Was he responsible for their damnation? No. They are responsible for their sin.

 

[ajcarey]

Did I say your belief was insane, NO, I just said it was wrong, but you attack that which you do not know nor understand as insane, (Typical Christian response) and by the way and those Reformed Theologians you speak of, they were wrong as well, and their being wrong, is precisely the reason you are.

When you learn how to do your own research of things and cease taking the Beliefs of others without, researching the truth of the matter beforehand, then maybe, just maybe you will then understand.

Sorry.

Your Jas 2:5 reference does not apply at all.

I never said that you said my belief was insane- but I did say your belief on who the elect and chosen are is insane. You've not made one single point to address anything in my post to reprove your belief, instead you've just made an ad hominem attack because you cannot defend your point with Scripture.

 

[renniks]

He is not obligated to save anyone, we all deserve to be punished. So was he in charge as in purposing the reprobate to be damned? Yes. Was he responsible for their damnation? No. They are responsible for

Unless you believe in double predestination, which is just being consistent , can't have one without the other in any practical sense. He has not purposed any to be damned. He died once for all.

 

[Jonaitis]

Unless you believe in double predestination, which is just being consistent , can't have one without the other in any practical sense. He has not purposed any to be damned. He died once for all.

I hold to double predestination and how I described it is exactly consistent.

 

[Jonaitis]

He has not purposed any to be damned.

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

 

[ajcarey]

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

So did he create Judas specifically so he would be wicked?

 

[renniks]

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

"The Lord works out everything to its proper end, even the wicked for a day of disaster."
Not about predestination at all. The wicked get disaster because of chosing wickedness.

 

[Jonaitis]

So did he create Judas specifically so he would be wicked?

He purposed Judas to be a reprobate and foretold it in Scripture:

"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." - John 17:12

 

[Jonaitis]

"The Lord works out everything to its proper end, even the wicked for a day of disaster."
Not about predestination at all. The wicked get disaster because of chosing wickedness.

In the first sentence, your quote says the "Lord works out everything to its proper end." It seems to imply more than what I said.

 

[ajcarey]

He purposed Judas to be a reprobate and foretold it in Scripture:

"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." - John 17:12

Judas being a reprobate was foretold in Scripture. Does that mean that Christ Himself purposed that Judas be wicked? If not, then your quote of Proverbs 16:4 would not do anything to prove Calvinism. But if so, then the Lord Jesus Himself would be a tremendous hypocrite, since He would have been feigning to be troubled over the very wickedness which He Himself had actually deliberately purposed and thus been the author of:

John 13:21 "When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me."

 

[renniks]

In the first sentence, your quote says the "Lord works out everything to its proper end." It seems to imply more than what I said.

Only because you read it with Calvinist glasses on. For one who chooses wickedness the proper end is disaster. It's not saying God chose their path for them.

 

[Jonaitis]

Only because you read it with Calvinist glasses on. For one who chooses wickedness the proper end is disaster. It's not saying God chose their path for them.

Calvinism affirms both, that the wicked chooses the very path to destruction, yet God purposed it.

I suggest rereading my first reply to you.

 

[Jonaitis]

Judas being a reprobate was foretold in Scripture. Does that mean that Christ Himself purposed that Judas be wicked? If not, then your quote of Proverbs 16:4 would not do anything to prove Calvinism. But if so, then the Lord Jesus Himself would be a tremendous hypocrite, since He would have been feigning to be troubled over the very wickedness which He Himself had actually deliberately purposed and thus been the author of:

John 13:21 "When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me."

Jesus was perfect God and perfect man, he was troubled within manhood, but knew perfectly well in his Godhood.

 

[renniks]

Calvinism affirms both, that the wicked chooses the very path to destruction, yet God purposed it.

I suggest rereading my first reply to you.

I've read it all 100 times elsewhere. It's simply not biblical. God isn't the unmoved mover.

 

[Jonaitis]

I've read it all 100 times elsewhere. It's simply not biblical. God isn't the unmoved mover.

What did Jesus mean by this statement?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

Actually, what about this passage a little before it?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." - John 6:37-39

You can read the context if you want.

It appears that God influences the choices of some to believe and be saved. Wouldn't that mean the rest are purposed to be damned?

 

[JIMINZ]

I never said that you said my belief was insane- but I did say your belief on who the elect and chosen are is insane. You've not made one single point to address anything in my post to reprove your belief, instead you've just made an ad hominem attack because you cannot defend your point with Scripture.

Look again, your the one who began your first post to me with said ad hominem
attack, your the one who began your statements to me by saying mine were insane, I was not rude to you, why then did you feel the need to insult me by your saying my conclusions were insane, aren't you able to make your point without insults?

By the way, it's you that need to refute what I said not me, I'm the one who made the statement you disagree with.

Sorry, but your the one who cannot MAKE your point with Scripture.

Show me what you got, just making bold statements like you originally did do not prove their validity or their truthfulness.

I could not care less what the Reformed Theologians believed, tell me what you have found to be true, without using them as some crutch of legitimacy for what you espouse to be true, I can't refute them.

Don't think by your posting every verse where the words Elect, Chosen are used without some sort of explanation as to why is proof of your belief, then think again.

I'm trying to understand what you believe and why you believe it, not what someone who lived hundreds of years ago thought on the matter, then how your Church taught you the very same beliefs, as though they are truth, when they are not.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi Mark,

I do think some are predestined, but others are in God's foreknowledge. Everyone in the genealogy to Noah was predestined, and then Shem's line to Abraham and Isaac. Jacob was predestined, but not Esau. The whole Jewish nation was predestined, but not the Edomites. David was predestined to be King, but not Saul, David's predecessor. The apostles were predestined including Judas so that prophecy could be fulfilled.

When you read the first chapter of Ephesians I see the "predestined" Paul is talking about is his people, the Jews to whom the message of the righteousness of God and the Messiah came.

Have you ever thought about it like that?

Hi CL,

Nice to hear from you again, and your right, if you eant to leearn about predestination Eph. 1 is the place to be. Paul goes on for 13 verses praising God for the wonders of his glorious grace. God chose us to be holy and blameless, adopted as sons through Jesus Christ. Did you know Paul uses the expression 'in Christ', 35X in 3 chapters?

When Paul talks about being predestined it's always 'in Christ'. To understand that Eph. 1 or Rom. 8 are the place to be.

By the way, good insights, thanks for sharing.

 

[ajcarey]

He purposed Judas to be a reprobate and foretold it in Scripture:

"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." - John 17:12

Judas being a reprobate was foretold in Scripture. Does that mean that Christ Himself purposed that Judas be wicked? If not, then your quote of Proverbs 16:4 would not do anything to prove Calvinism. But if so, then the Lord Jesus Himself would be a tremendous hypocrite, since He would have been feigning to be troubled over the very wickedness which He Himself had actually deliberately purposed and thus been the author of:

John 13:21 "When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me."

Jesus was perfect God and perfect man, he was troubled within manhood, but knew perfectly well in his Godhood.

Nonsense. That is no different than saying the Calvinist God was troubled about Calvinism in his manhood, but knew perfectly well in his Godhood. The true God doesn't lament over the same evil as a man which He ordained as God. Evil is evil and Jesus never changed nor changes- Hebrews 13:8