we are ALL PREDESTINED

[renniks]

The OC ways God did not do this.
People who deny God does this, are striving to live as if in an OC relationship of trying to please God by their deeds done in their own natural strength. They claim their faith is their own choice and ability, strength of mind, like claiming to have been better learners, God has little or nothing to do with the reason they believe when in truth Him being Lord God Almighty and what He did for you is the only reason you believe in Christ.

What he did for you...what he did was die for me and for everyone who will believe. Yes we are saved by grace, through faith. Faith is not about mustering up my strength to believe, it's about falling on God's mercy. To believe that God chose me over some one else, would surely lead to arrogance. Think about it. That would mean my salvation, in essence, means someone else is unconditionally damned. Paul says he could wish himself cursed if it would save his fellow Jews. Is Paul more merciful than God?

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 2
1 And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

for by grace have ye been saved through faith not of yourselves, this is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Everything having to do with your salvation is God's gift so that you have no reasons to boast about any of it, and that also includes the faith you have, faith was also His gift.

Our belief though is our response.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Their own words from the Westminster confession, for starters.

First off; you realize that definitions of words change over time and what you perceive "ordained" to mean; might not have been what it's intended usage in this theological context meant 400 years ago? If they were to write (for example) the Westminster Profession of Faith today; they most likely would use different language.

Do you want me to go on?

Do you also realize that just like in any denominational tradition; there is a variety of beliefs and "takes" on things "Calvinist's" believe?

Now, I like John Piper's definition of "ordained". ".....I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”

That statement I agree with. I don't agree with all the statements of the other people you posted.

Yet absolutely I believe in what the Scripture says when it states that those who were predestine to redemption were elect from the foundations of the world.

I also believe "TULIP" to be an accurate representation of the doctrines of grace.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints.

I would say God permits things to happen and does so for His purposes; but that is not the same thing as saying God is the cause of all things that happen. If He is the cause, than He has no means of holding anyone accountable for their sin.

Calvin:
The problem with certain of the John Calvin quotes; is that the mechanism (or your assumption of the mechanism. Are you missing the greater context?) where by God governs His Divine purposes in the affairs of men; is not via dictatorial management. I'm sure human behavior is very predictable to an omniscient God; and therefore He would not have to force men to commit sin. We do that "freely" of our own will.

God being omnipotent though; if He desires that someone aught to take a morally right action to accomplish God's desire, He can very easily turn that heart to act rightly. Now because God is a moral agent; He happily does this. God can not contradict His own moral character.

If someone's sinful action though, brings about the greater good God intends, either for that person, or for someone else; all God has to do is leave them to their own devices and they get exactly what their will freely desires.

My former husband and son's father committed suicide. That was an action he took upon himself acting upon his own will. God did not kill him. Did God desire of him to take his own life? Scripture says God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yet God left him to the end result of his own actions and he did not survive his suicide attempt. But two years later; his son gets Medicare, because of being disabled and can collect on his father's social security, because his father is deceased. Medicare gets the kid to the Mayo Clinic to effectively treat his epilepsy; thus saving his life. What man meant for evil (committing suicide) God uses for good (treating his son's epilepsy).

Now of course this does not spare either the child or myself from having to deal with the consequences of his suicide. Am I happy he's dead? No! Does a good that's greater than the evil of his death, come out of his death. Yes, it did. Was that his intention when he committed suicide? (No, he was "getting back" at the girlfriend who broke up with him.) The wages of sin is death. His death is the direct consequence of a whole string of bad choices he made. Did God cause him to make those choices? No. Did God allow him to make those choices for God's greater purpose? Yes. Is it still sad and do I wish it had turned out differently than it has? Yes. Do I accept it for being what it is? I have to; I have no other choice. There's no point in arguing with God over something I can't change. He's still God.

And this last statement of Calvin's that you quote here; is exactly what I've demonstrated:

"The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining (permitting) but he falls by his own fault."

Calvin right here defines that he is not using the word "ordain" to say God is the cause of man's fall.

White:
The problem with the James White quote is that evil has no purpose other than destruction. And it's God's purpose in the end, that ultimately for the believer it doesn't destroy.

Cheung:
The problem with Vincent Cheung's statement; is that he does not have a very good grasp as to the reason or role evil plays in this current course of events.

Although God's omnipotence could have superseded evil; God chose that He would not do that.

You get bent out of shape because you perceive that the doctrines of grace do not give man "free will". Yet at the same time, Arminian doctrine disavows God of His free will. You miss the fact that both created and Creator possess the ability to act independently of each other's desires.

One is free to exercise the good He intends.

The other is free to exercise the evil intents of his fallen state.

Congratulations; you now see the dichotomy of the two outcomes of the knowledge of good and evil.

One is unable to be corrupted by that knowledge because of the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and eternal Entity that He is.

The other can only be corrupted by that knowledge; because he as the created entity, bears none of these above named attributes of his Creator.

In short - He's God and you're not!

Did you see the video I posted where the Calvinist screams that when God wants man to commit adultery, he orders him to?

Yes, I watched most of that video. Did you not see my response to it?

 

[The Righterzpen]

No, he would have to offer a real choice, if he desires real love.

God offered a real choice in the garden. Because there was no real love coming from man, that's why he disobeyed. God knew that would happen though; and He was merciful for not destroying humanity right then and there!

If he was the total cause of turning their wills, how could that be love?

Would it be love to allow your 2 year old to run into the traffic because you don't want to interfere with their free will?

It would be mental and spiritual rape.

If you are fighting the doctor and paramedic who save your life; is that mental and spiritual rape?

Yes, the Holy Spirits works in our conscious, yes, He convicts, but he is also resistible. That is the nature of love.

What kind of love allows you to destroy yourself?

Even hell, IMO, is God giving many exactly what they acted as if they wanted, separation from God.

Hell is exactly God giving "them" what they want; separation from Him. If you are redeemed, than you were one of "them"!

Also when Paul says no one follows God, you have to take it in context, he is quoting Psalms, which is about what fools do, it's not a universal comment.

Are we not all fools? "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

There are plenty of people in the Bible, even before Christ's coming that do good and are called good. Job comes to mind, for example.

And this is because they were predestine unto redemption from the foundations of the world, because Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8)

The atonement was not only something that took place in 33AD. It also took place in eternity; outside of time!

At any rate, Paul also says even nature itself points to God and Jesus says that all who seek will find.

John 8:50
And I seek not mine own glory: there is One that seeketh and judgeth.

Romans 3:11
There's none that seek after God.

Philippians 2:20-21
For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Who's first to do the "seeking"?

 

[SwordmanJr]

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

Predestination doesn't mean that everyone is stuck in a rut.

Jr

 

[renniks]

Would it be love to allow your 2 year old to run into the traffic because you don't want to interfere with their free will?

No, but that totally misses the point. In determinism, which is where Calvinism leads (and the consistent Calvinists admit this) God is not just controlling our right actions, he is controlling our wrong ones. So, if the two year old runs into traffic, under determinism, it's because God ordained and decreed that he would do so. If someone commits suicide, like a friend of ours did, it is ultimately only because God ordained that he do so. The non existence of actual free will necessarily makes God the author of all evil. And all your playing with words does not change that one iota.

 

[renniks]

Who's first to do the "seeking"?

Arminains also believe that God first seeks us. Honestly the way you flop back and forth, you seem to be trying to play both sides, but that is what compatibalists do, because they try to hold onto the tension between God controlling (not just being in charge, but actively controlling everything) and so called free will, which of course, is really not free at all, it's just the illusion of freedom. And God bringing good from evil is really another whole subject. But, both arminians and calvinists agree that he does bring good from evil for those who love him, not for everyone. God working all things for our good is also conditional on the degree that we truly love him. His ability to bring good from evil doesn't mean that he ordains the evil.

 

[renniks]

Yes, I watched most of that video. Did you not see my response to it?

No, I must have missed that post.

 

[sdowney717]

No, but that totally misses the point. In determinism, which is where Calvinism leads (and the consistent Calvinists admit this) God is not just controlling our right actions, he is controlling our wrong ones. So, if the two year old runs into traffic, under determinism, it's because God ordained and decreed that he would do so. If someone commits suicide, like a friend of ours did, it is ultimately only because God ordained that he do so. The non existence of actual free will necessarily makes God the author of all evil. And all your playing with words does not change that one iota.

You mean like this

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.

 

[renniks]

Actually, that Scripture destroys the Arminian position which says that salvation is gained by man's choice alone.

Only that is not the Arminian position at all. Classic Arminians believe in preveniant grace, which goes before and convicts men of sin, but is not irresistible. Believe me, I grew up in Wesleyan and Methodist churches, and the Holy Spirit's leading is a central doctrine for arminians.

 

[renniks]

You mean like this

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.

That says nothing about whether the wicked are born with or without a chance to became good.

In Proverbs 16:33, is the author’s intention to say that God predetermines the outcome of casting lots in same manner He predetermines the decisions of people? Many people in that day were superstitious and resorted to practices like casting lots or drawing straws to make decisions, instead of consulting God.
Let's look at context, something you all rarely seem to do:
“How much better to get wisdom than gold, to get insight rather than silver!” (v. 16).

“The highway of the upright avoids evil; those who guard their ways preserve their lives” (v. 17)

“Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD” (v. 20).

“The wise in heart are called discerning, and gracious words promote instruction” (v. 21).

“Prudence is a fountain of life to the prudent, but folly brings punishment to fools” (v. 22).

“The hearts of the wise make their mouths prudent, and their lips promote instruction” (v. 23).

A fool casts lots in order to make decisions, but the “wise” and “prudent” “avoid evil,” “give heed to instruction,” and “trust in the Lord.” In other words, stupid people making bad decisions in unGodly ways, like casting lots, won’t keep God from accomplishing His ultimate purpose. It doesn't mean that God is controlling every toss of the dice, if that were true, one would actually be wise to consult the dice! In fact, it pretty much means the opposite of what you take it to mean. The proverb is teaching that it is folly to fall for deterministic finite logic by making decisions based on the erroneous belief that God is predetermining the outcome of superstitious lot casting.

 

[The Righterzpen]

In determinism, which is where Calvinism leads (and the consistent Calvinists admit this) God is not just controlling our right actions, he is controlling our wrong ones.

That is according to what you think; not according to what Scripture teaches, or what I believe.

God is not just controlling our right actions, he is controlling our wrong ones. So, if the two year old runs into traffic, under determinism, it's because God ordained and decreed that he would do so.

God is not the author of sin. God does not make anyone sin. God allows men to sin and with the example of the two year old; your free will, will always lead you to destruction. That is 100% guaranteed! If God does't stop you; you will destroy yourself.

God demonstrates His love in that He stops some.
God demonstrates His Own sovereign will that He doesn't stop all!

In those who understood that He stopped them; this does not create arrogance. It creates gratitude.

On the contrary though, those who believe God needs their will to work are the one's who demonstrate arrogance; because they therefore have a reason to boast for their "choice" of "receiving" salvation. Yet faith is a work and that work is God's for it's Him that "worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".

Note this passage does not say "it's him that works in you both to will and to do of your own sinful intent".

The non existence of actual free will necessarily makes God the author of all evil. And all your playing with words does not change that one iota.

The Scriptural understanding of the doctrine of election does not negate the fact that all creatures with the brain capacity to make choices; have the ability to make choices that are independent of the desires of both other creatures as well as God. God did not create robots. The only place man's will takes him to though, is destruction. This is why "the wages of sin is death". (I keep emphasizing wage as being something earned.)

As well as the reason that man's will isn't actually "free". You have not the capacity to make decisions that are not influenced by both your fallen nature and your own sin. This is partially true of animals too. They have not the capacity to make decisions that have not been impacted by the fall. Not being created in God's image though; they are not accountable to God for sin; even though technically they can "sin". They can go against that which God intends for them. We see this in Deuteronomy that if an animal kills a human being; you are to put that animal to death.

The only human who actually had a free will was Jesus Christ. His motivations, intentions and behavior were not encumbered by a fallen nature and were not driven by personal sin; despite the fact that He existed in and was certainly impacted by a sinful fallen world.

Compare Jesus to Adam. Adam had it all and blew it all. Christ had nothing and accomplished more than Adam even had the capacity to understand. Adam did not understand because Adam was purposefully created in the image of God. He was not the 2nd person of the Godhead incarnate and because he did not have a Divine nature; Adam was corruptible. That state of Adam, was intentionally created by God, so that God could demonstrate His love.

Adam exercised his free will and the demonstration of where that free will lead to was "God I hate You!" and he disobeyed. That is not any different than the choices that any of the rest of us would make; even in Adam's pristine environment (where he was lacking and wanting for nothing)!

Adam had absolutely no reason to disobey God! And on top of that; his disobedience wasn't even reasonable. Adam was not a child. He could reason out the consequence of his actions. Adam transgressed knowingly; whereas Eve was deceived. This is why Adam's seed carry on the consequence of Adam's choice; but Eve's did not. And this is how God Himself could be incarnated in human flesh and not have that nature passed to Him; despite the fact that momma Mary was a sinner.

But, both arminians and calvinists agree that he does bring good from evil for those who love him, not for everyone.

All of humanity has aptly demonstrated from Adam's very inception that they do not love God. Now do you have the humility to admit that?

 

[The Righterzpen]

No, I must have missed that post.

Post #169; but it was not in direct response to what you'd posted, (nor was it linked to be specifically addressed to you) since I'd copied and posted the link directly off of YouTube.

 

[renniks]

The Scriptural understanding of the doctrine of election does not negate the fact that all creatures with the brain capacity to make choices; have the ability to make choices that are independent of the desires of both other creatures as well as God.

Here you again contradict what you claim to believe. If we can make choices independent of God's desires, than we do indeed have free will. Free will is not campatable with Calvinism. I think you need to study your own doctrine more.

As well as the reason that man's will isn't actually "free". You have not the capacity to make decisions that are not influenced by both your fallen nature and your own sin.

You do once God sends conviction on you, and since God died for all according to scripture, why would he not send conviction on all? You are influenced by your fallen nature and by God's prompting. And depending on which you follow, it either leads you to God or away from him.

 

[renniks]

We must not confuse the concept of "free will" with a creature's ability to act independently of the desires of any other entity (God included)

Here you contradict what you just said in you recent post.

This though is a different matter than those regenerated unto redemption. The redeemed being chosen (of chance) from the foundations of the world from among the lot of humanity rightfully condemned. This choice was made before the foundations of the world; none of us at that point never having done any good or evil. God possessing the knowledge of good and evil though; knew of and planned for the inevitability of the fall. And those who've won the greatest lottery in the world; are ever indebted to God for His demonstration of love.

Do you really thing God is spinning a wheel of chance to decide who gets saved and who doesn't? This isn't just ludicrous, it is against the very nature of God, and I don't think you're going to find any other Calvinists who agree that God is running a heavenly lottery. Better to leave it to mystery than go there.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Here you again contradict what you claim to believe.

No, i contradict what you claim I believe! As I've explained, this ability to act independently of the desires of other entities does not mean the will is free.

You do once God sends conviction on you, and since God died for all according to scripture, why would he not send conviction on all?

Conviction comes upon all because we are all created in His image. This is demonstrated by "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." This is how we are all accountable.

Being quickened to life only comes to the elect; because they are the only one's Christ atoned for.

It is the atonement that predicates someone's standing as being redeemed before God; not their faith, will or choices. (The rest of John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, (genetic descendent of Abraham) nor of the will of the flesh, (their choices predicated upon their own desires) nor of the will of man, (decree by a human authority) but of God.

If Jesus had atoned for the sin of every human being that ever lived; God would have no grounds wherewith to condemn anyone.

There are people that Jesus atoned for that they don't / didn't know He atoned for them. They don't / didn't know because they had not the written revelation of Scripture; yet they had the witness of the creation; which they came to believe what they were capable of coming to understand via that witness.

This is the context of the verse "He is the Saviour of all men; but especially of those that believe."

"He is the propitiation for our sins; but also the sins of the world". Propitiation means "one who makes payment". We might use the term "buyer". For everyone who is "bought by the blood" of Christ; Christ is the buyer. Yet this does not mean He's bought everyone, only that anyone who is bought, was bought by Him.

That is limited atonement.

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for he shall save his people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect 1588) Mt 22: 14, 20: 16

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31

(it's not national Israel) - Rev 7:4 -15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

"Blessed is the man whom thou chooses, and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant, and he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9: 6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. " (elect 1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect 1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16

AMBIGUOUS VERSES CONCERNING ELECTION?!

"But as many as received him (Greek word "lam-ban'o" [2983] - to get hold of), to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them which believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, (earthly heritage such as national Israel) nor of the will of the flesh, (the components of humanity involving thought, feeling and action) nor of the will of man, (an action or decree by a human authority) but of God." Jn 1:12 &13

Notice the context of this verse is "He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as (had) received him..." meaning those who were physically present when he came unto his own; (even if they weren't nationally "his own") - to them he gave the power to become the sons of God.

This is a different context than those who become redeemed after Pentecost, since the acting agent of salvation after Pentecost is the Holy Spirit. This is why it says "which were born not of blood" since all the witnesses to Christ in the flesh and the recipients of his miracles were not all Jews.

And "Nor of the will of the flesh"; i.e. - their own human desire; since they came to see the miracles and not out of any human understanding that they needed redemption.

"Nor the will of man (or a man)". Their coming was not decreed by any human authority, including Jesus; (who was the only one who had the right to make that decree). This is why even Jesus was some times surprised and perplexed by some of the people who came to him. Being without sin, Jesus had the right to pass judgement as to who he thought was worthy of redemption. He refrained himself from that right, leaving it only to the Father; who being Spirit could see of spiritual things that Jesus could not perceive in the flesh because they had been veiled from him by his humanity.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " Jn 3:16

People use this as a verse to justify universal atonement by pointing to the phrase "For God so loved the word"; but even in this translation it's easy to see that the "should not perish, but have everlasting life" is predicated upon the whosoever that believes. If there's no "belief" there's no "eternal life".

Now to more accurately translate this verse we must look at the tenses of the Greek phrases themselves. In doing so, we have "For God so loved (Greek word ag-ap-ah'-o [25] - love based in a moral righteousness for the intrinsic value of the object of that love) the world (Greek word "Kosmos" [2889] from which we get our English word "cosmos" or universe; meaning the entire created order of what God had made) that he gave (aorist indicative active - an act that takes place once and is not relative to the time of speaking) his only begotten son (only or sole born son), that (for the reason of) whosoever (all, or the whole of) believes in him (to put trust in - present active participle - denoting a continuos action that is contemporary to the leading verb; i.e. in this case, the giving of the only begotten son: - meaning all who believe at the time of the giving of the only begotten son) should not perish, but have (present subjective active - a repeated action that is subject to some condition being met) eternal life."

"For God so loved His creation that (at a certain point) He gave His only begotten son for the reason that the whole of who believed upon him (at the time of his giving) should not die but (continue in) eternal life (until their atonement is completed)."

This language is pointing to the fact that those who faced Christ in the flesh were in a more precarious situation than those who'd come to believe through the action of the Holy Spirit. The promise here is that those who trusted Jesus would not die before the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost (or at the very least prior to Christ's resurrection) and their souls were sealed to the eternal life they would inherit. This is why the phrase "have eternal life" is in the present subjective active voice. Their not perishing and inheriting of eternal life was subject to the atonement being completed: (which hadn't yet been accomplished in the duration of earthly time John was describing i.e. - the appearance of the messiah at the beginning of his preaching).

Taking all this into consideration, the rest of the verses fit right into that context. The son was not sent for the condemnation of the word, but for it's salvation. This is how those who don't believe are condemned already, because the light has come into the word, (God appearing in the flesh) exposing the fact that their deeds are evil.

Their deeds were known to be evil because of their obvious rejection of Christ. They knew and could see by the presence of his miracles that he was "the real deal". He had genuine authority, not just granted to him of his Father (as was with the prophets who came before) but inherent in who he was. The miracles were given as a witness to what he was saying about himself and his role as God incarnate Redeemer. This is why Jesus said "If you don't believe me... than believe the works (miracles) I've performed. John 10:37+.

" there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world (Greek word oy-kou-men'-ay {those that dwell in the earth} [3625]) should be taxed." Lk 2:I

Notice this is a totally different word than the word world (Kosmos) used in John. We can denote a few things from this phrase in Luke. First of all, we know Caesar Augustus did not tax the Chinese or the American Indians. Of course those peoples and nations were out of his jurisdiction. So just because a word is translated "world" does not give us the liberty to assume it's speaking of everyone on planet earth.

This is the same with John 3:16 "For God so loved the word". We are not at liberty to assume this means all the inhabitants of the earth; for if it had, John could have very easily used this here word "ov-kou-men'-ay" in his description of the love of God for the world. He didn't use this word (inhabitants of the earth); he used the word cosmos (or all the created order). Why did John use the word cosmos instead of inhabitants of the earth? The simple answer to that is that this created order is also part of the redemption plan. Rom 8:19

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ... but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pete 3:9

Notice who Peter is writing to in this passage. These people are professing a belief in Christ. Now Peter being one who is truly counted as an elect individual includes himself in those who God is long-suffering toward and not willing that any should perish. This is why the passage says "long-suffering to us-ward"; it doesn't say "long-suffering to all, not willing that any should perish.."

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you shall serve; whether the gods which your fathers served which were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Armories, in whose land ye dwell but as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord."

Notice the choice is not weather to serve God or not serve God. It simply says that if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, than there are a million other god's out there you can choose from. The choice is not between the truth and a lie, the choice is between two lies.

" .. he is the propitiation (make reconciliation for [2433, 2434] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" 1 Jn 2:2

Jesus makes reconciliation for our sins and also for the sin of anyone in this whole world who's sin has been covered. The verse is not saying he's covering the sin of the whole world; if it meant that it would be phrased "...he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" It is simply saying he is the one who makes reconciliation for all in this world who are to be reconciled. Again, notice the context of the verse, these people were confused about whether or not they could be reconciled by the Old Testament law.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Act 4:12

GOD REVEALS HIS MERCY TO ONLY THE ELECT

"neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Mt. 11:27

"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Mt. 13:11

" ... no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" Jn 6:65 "This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" Jn 6:29

"For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will" Jn 5:21

".and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow for they know not the voice of strangers" Jn 10:4

 

[The Righterzpen]

Here you contradict what you just said in you recent post.

Only in your dishonest assessment of what I've said is this a contradiction. Anyone reading this thread honestly will see that.

Do you really thing God is spinning a wheel of chance to decide who gets saved and who doesn't? This isn't just ludicrous, it is against the very nature of God, and I don't think you're going to find any other Calvinists who agree that God is running a heavenly lottery. Better to leave it to mystery than go there.

That "Divine lottery" (if that's what you'd want to call it) was "spun" from before the foundations of the world. We see this concept in Romans 9

Romans 9:
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth:

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Now what does it mean that God hated Esau? That word "hated" there means "to have no regard for". It's not an "emotional response" of a personal dislike for someone. It is a disregard for where Esau spends eternity based on Divine choice; because in reality, Jacob doesn't deserve God's love either!

 

[renniks]

Now what does it mean that God hated Esau? That word "hated" there means "to have no regard for". It's not an "emotional response" of a personal dislike for someone. It is a disregard for where Esau spends eternity based on Divine choice; because in reality, Jacob doesn't deserve God's love either!

God chose Issac for a job, over Esau. It has nothing to do with Esaus salvation.

 

[renniks]

No, i contradict what you claim I believe! As I've explained, this ability to act independently of the desires of other entities does not mean the will is free.



Conviction comes upon all because we are all created in His image. This is demonstrated by "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." This is how we are all accountable.

Being quickened to life only comes to the elect; because they are the only one's Christ atoned for.

It is the atonement that predicates someone's standing as being redeemed before God; not their faith, will or choices. (The rest of John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, (genetic descendent of Abraham) nor of the will of the flesh, (their choices predicated upon their own desires) nor of the will of man, (decree by a human authority) but of God.

If Jesus had atoned for the sin of every human being that ever lived; God would have no grounds wherewith to condemn anyone.

There are people that Jesus atoned for that they don't / didn't know He atoned for them. They don't / didn't know because they had not the written revelation of Scripture; yet they had the witness of the creation; which they came to believe what they were capable of coming to understand via that witness.

This is the context of the verse "He is the Saviour of all men; but especially of those that believe."

"He is the propitiation for our sins; but also the sins of the world". Propitiation means "one who makes payment". We might use the term "buyer". For everyone who is "bought by the blood" of Christ; Christ is the buyer. Yet this does not mean He's bought everyone, only that anyone who is bought, was bought by Him.

That is limited atonement.

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for he shall save his people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect 1588) Mt 22: 14, 20: 16

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31

(it's not national Israel) - Rev 7:4 -15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

"Blessed is the man whom thou chooses, and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant, and he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9: 6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. " (elect 1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect 1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16

AMBIGUOUS VERSES CONCERNING ELECTION?!

"But as many as received him (Greek word "lam-ban'o" [2983] - to get hold of), to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them which believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, (earthly heritage such as national Israel) nor of the will of the flesh, (the components of humanity involving thought, feeling and action) nor of the will of man, (an action or decree by a human authority) but of God." Jn 1:12 &13

Notice the context of this verse is "He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as (had) received him..." meaning those who were physically present when he came unto his own; (even if they weren't nationally "his own") - to them he gave the power to become the sons of God.

This is a different context than those who become redeemed after Pentecost, since the acting agent of salvation after Pentecost is the Holy Spirit. This is why it says "which were born not of blood" since all the witnesses to Christ in the flesh and the recipients of his miracles were not all Jews.

And "Nor of the will of the flesh"; i.e. - their own human desire; since they came to see the miracles and not out of any human understanding that they needed redemption.

"Nor the will of man (or a man)". Their coming was not decreed by any human authority, including Jesus; (who was the only one who had the right to make that decree). This is why even Jesus was some times surprised and perplexed by some of the people who came to him. Being without sin, Jesus had the right to pass judgement as to who he thought was worthy of redemption. He refrained himself from that right, leaving it only to the Father; who being Spirit could see of spiritual things that Jesus could not perceive in the flesh because they had been veiled from him by his humanity.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " Jn 3:16

People use this as a verse to justify universal atonement by pointing to the phrase "For God so loved the word"; but even in this translation it's easy to see that the "should not perish, but have everlasting life" is predicated upon the whosoever that believes. If there's no "belief" there's no "eternal life".

Now to more accurately translate this verse we must look at the tenses of the Greek phrases themselves. In doing so, we have "For God so loved (Greek word ag-ap-ah'-o [25] - love based in a moral righteousness for the intrinsic value of the object of that love) the world (Greek word "Kosmos" [2889] from which we get our English word "cosmos" or universe; meaning the entire created order of what God had made) that he gave (aorist indicative active - an act that takes place once and is not relative to the time of speaking) his only begotten son (only or sole born son), that (for the reason of) whosoever (all, or the whole of) believes in him (to put trust in - present active participle - denoting a continuos action that is contemporary to the leading verb; i.e. in this case, the giving of the only begotten son: - meaning all who believe at the time of the giving of the only begotten son) should not perish, but have (present subjective active - a repeated action that is subject to some condition being met) eternal life."

"For God so loved His creation that (at a certain point) He gave His only begotten son for the reason that the whole of who believed upon him (at the time of his giving) should not die but (continue in) eternal life (until their atonement is completed)."

This language is pointing to the fact that those who faced Christ in the flesh were in a more precarious situation than those who'd come to believe through the action of the Holy Spirit. The promise here is that those who trusted Jesus would not die before the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and their souls were sealed to the eternal life they would inherit. This is why the phrase "have eternal life" is in the present subjective active voice. Their not perishing and inheriting of eternal life was subject to the atonement being completed: (which hadn't yet been accomplished in the duration of earthly time John was describing i.e. - the appearance of the messiah at the beginning of his preaching).

Taking all this into consideration, the rest of the verses fit right into that context. The son was not sent for the condemnation of the word, but for it's salvation. This is how those who don't believe are condemned already, because the light has come into the word, (God appearing in the flesh) exposing the fact that their deeds are evil.

Their deeds were known to be evil because of their obvious rejection of Christ. They knew and could see by the presence of his miracles that he was "the real deal". He had genuine authority, not just granted to him of his Father (as was with the prophets who came before) but inherent in who he was. The miracles were given as a witness to what he was saying about himself and his role as God incarnate Redeemer. This is why Jesus said "If you don't believe me... than believe the works (miracles) I've performed. John 10:37+.

" there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world (Greek word oy-kou-men'-ay {those that dwell in the earth} [3625]) should be taxed." Lk 2:I

Notice this is a totally different word than the word world (Kosmos) used in John. We can denote a few things from this phrase in Luke. First of all, we know Caesar Augustus did not tax the Chinese or the American Indians. Of course those peoples and nations were out of his jurisdiction. So just because a word is translated "world" does not give us the liberty to assume it's speaking of everyone on planet earth.

This is the same with John 3:16 "For God so loved the word". We are not at liberty to assume this means all the inhabitants of the earth; for if it had, John could have very easily used this here word "ov-kou-men'-ay" in his description of the love of God for the world. He didn't use this word (inhabitants of the earth); he used the word cosmos (or all the created order). Why did John use the word cosmos instead of inhabitants of the earth? The simple answer to that is that this created order is also part of the redemption plan. Rom 8:19

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ... but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pete 3:9

Notice who Peter is writing to in this passage. These people are professing a belief in Christ. Now Peter being one who is truly counted as an elect individual includes himself in those who God is long-suffering toward and not willing that any should perish. This is why the passage says "long-suffering to us-ward"; it doesn't say "long-suffering to all, not willing that any should perish.."

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you shall serve; whether the gods which your fathers served which were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Armories, in whose land ye dwell but as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord."

Notice the choice is not weather to serve God or not serve God. It simply says that if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, than there are a million other god's out there you can choose from. The choice is not between the truth and a lie, the choice is between two lies.

" .. he is the propitiation (make reconciliation for [2433, 2434] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" 1 Jn 2:2

Jesus makes reconciliation for our sins and also for the sin of anyone in this whole world who's sin has been covered. The verse is not saying he's covering the sin of the whole world; if it meant that it would be phrased "...he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" It is simply saying he is the one who makes reconciliation for all in this world who are to be reconciled. Again, notice the context of the verse, these people were confused about whether or not they could be reconciled by the Old Testament law.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Act 4:12

GOD REVEALS HIS MERCY TO ONLY THE ELECT

"neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Mt. 11:27

"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Mt. 13:11

" ... no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" Jn 6:65 "This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" Jn 6:29

"For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will" Jn 5:21

".and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow for they know not the voice of strangers" Jn 10:4

Are we really going to play the "snow them under with copy and paste"? Ain't no one got time to respond point by point with all that.

 

[renniks]

Only in your dishonest assessment of what I've said is this a contradiction. Anyone reading this thread honestly will see that.

Fine, if you don't like the word contradiction, just answer: Can man's actions contradict God's desires and will or not? You have not been clear on that.