• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured We’re Ready to Rebuild the Third Temple

Discussion in 'Current News & Events' started by The Gryphon, Nov 6, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that they should be applied to it.

    That is, the end of the second Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD did not fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the second temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 was referring not only to the single, second temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount, and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Matthew 24:1).

    Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus Christ had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,328
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Sorry, wrong on all counts. Jesus and the Church are God's Temple according to the NT. And the Kingdom was present as Jesus preached it. It is spiritual and will never exist physically in this world.

    "Jesus and the Church are God’s Temple according to the NT. “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:19–21) (KJV 1900)

    “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

    And the Kingdom was present as Jesus preached it. “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” (Luke 11:20) (KJV 1900)

    It is spiritual and will never exist physically in this world. “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    Doesn't this group and other similar passages make a physical kingdom impossible?"
     
  3. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +987
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    So Jesus told that audience that the temple would be destroyed, and you're pretty convinced it didn't occur. What's left to conclude? That he was a false prophet? That's apparently what his audience should have concluded, especially and apparently if all stones from the temple's destruction weren't all in contact with the dirt.

    So we have a few points to note:

    (1) The Western Wall was a retaining wall, not the temple itself. It wasn't a building any more than a retaining wall at the end of my backyard is my house.
    (2) Jesus' point is that the temple - the one that his audience knew well and could observe in front of them - would be destroyed. This actually happened in history. If you want to take "not one stone shall be left on top of another" as anything, then it's hyperbole. Unless Jesus can't use such a device when communicating with normal people. I really do think that in some people's minds, hyperbole is "lying" and so Jesus would never speak using hyperbole. But I see no real reason to think that Jesus couldn't or didn't use normal methods of communicating ideas to other people.

    I think if we follow your line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, then the people who heard Jesus should have concluded (a) that Jesus was wrong and (b) that it was a strange coincidence that Jesus talked about the destruction of the temple, such an event actually occurred, but that it wasn't the event he was talking about. What a coincidence.

    No, the most natural reading is that Jesus told his audience about the coming destruction of the temple. The temple he talked about was the one his audience knew well, visited, offered sacrifices in, etc (what I will label the 3rd temple since Josephus says Herod removed the 2nd one all the way through the foundations). That temple's destruction that he talked about is the same one that occurred in AD 70.

    Jesus also talked about being able to build a new temple "not made with human hands," which was the his body, and by extension, the Church. This also isn't simply a "spiritual" temple since the Church is physically present and spread around the globe. In fact, the temple is now larger than it ever was in the 2nd century.

    There is no need to read things into the text that (a) distort the natural context and setting of the text and (b) would force us to conclude that Jesus' audience should have concluded that he was mistaken/wrong about his prediction and that the events they observed were a strange coincidence.
     
  4. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Martin Luther was in his later life one of the most noted Jew Haters (Anti-Semites) in "Christian" history.

    “Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough.

    Luther also urged that “safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews,” and that “all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.” What Jews could do was to have “a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade” put into their hands so “young, strong Jews and Jewesses” could “earn their bread in the sweat of their brow.”

    These fierce comments have puzzled and embarrassed Christians who otherwise admire the Reformer. And they have led to charges that Luther was “one of the ‘church fathers’ of anti-Semitism.” More seriously, Luther’s attacks have been seen as paving the way for Hitler.

    Was Luther anti-Semitic? How should we understand his words?

    “Receive Jews Cordially”
    In 1523, Luther accused Catholics of being unfair to Jews and treating them “as if they were dogs,” thus making it difficult for Jews to convert. “I would request and advise that one deal gently with them [the Jews],” he wrote. “ … If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, hear our Christian teaching, ...
    Read the rest of the Christianity Today article by clicking> Was Luther Anti-Semitic?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  5. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +3,744
    Lutheran
    Married
    What motivated Luther's rhetoric was that God's chosen people were so blinded by the law that they did not recognize the Messiah, and therefore rejected our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Be mindful that the Catholic Church viewed Luther the same way; labeled him an outlaw.

    My ancestors are came to Canada because the Calvinists confiscated our Churches, imprisoned our Clergy, and even burnt some of us at the stake in Alsace. Poor Jews, Poor Lutherans, Poor everyone! Get a straw and suck it up.
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that it will (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28), during the future Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6.

    For the Millennium will begin after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign physically on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (of all times) for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4). During the Millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19) and nations (Revelation 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus will be King of kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-8,13, Zechariah 14:8-21).

    Isaiah 19 and Isaiah 11:6-16 are also examples of Millennial scriptures.

    Also, note that there are at least eight Biblical reasons to read the 1,000 years (the Millennium) of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

    First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 is in chronological order, insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

    Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the seventh-and-last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture (gather together) and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Then Jesus Himself will completely defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

    -

    Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 are when Satan will be literally bound with a chain and cast into and locked within the literal Bottomless Pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' Second Coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan will not be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet.

    Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his False Prophet, and all of the armies of the world, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original-Greek manuscripts. So Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil on the earth will be defeated at Jesus' Second Coming.

    Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrected Church reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His Second Coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1-3), because Zechariah 14:8-21 refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the New Earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth, because it refers to surviving non-Christians from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, all non-Christians from the present earth will have been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

    Sixth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the Church will occur at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

    Seventh, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety only to physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all of the non-Church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the Church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

    Eighth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the "first resurrection" will include those in the Church who will have been beheaded by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the "first resurrection" cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' Second Coming, when He will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that while Jesus Christ was originally speaking with His apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in His mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 does not require that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including Jesus' never-fulfilled Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

    Note that it was part of the temple complex, "all these things" in Matthew 24:2.

    Note that in Matthew 24:1-2 the original Greek word (oikodome: G3619) translated as "buildings" includes "structures" in general (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the second Jewish temple-complex's Wailing Wall, and not just structures which English speakers would consider to be "buildings".

    Note that nothing requires that the "not one stone" part of Matthew 24:2 is hyperbole, just as nothing requires that the "not one" part of Romans 3:12, Luke 12:6, or Matthew 18:10 is hyperbole.
     
  8. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Well, my ancestors are descendants of Irish Landed and English Knights. I'm non-denominational now but was raised Southern Baptist. My pastor then who baptized me became known as the Chaplin for the Tunnel Rats during Vietnam holding services for them down in the tunnels. You sound like the one crying poor victim. I and others here are discussing the Bible and the building of the Jewish Temple during the Tribulation period. If you don't believe in it then that is you choice but from your posts you seem to be here to just stir the pot and not as an honest discussion participant. I commented on Luther since he is one of your quotes on every one of your posts and he is know, I am sorry to say as one of the worst anti-Semites in Christian history in his later life.
     
  9. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +987
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    I see no reason to accept this assertion about Matt 24.

    You're just re-asserting your position at this point and offering nothing new or additional. I see no reason to accept your position.

    I don't see the connection between Matt 24 and the verses you list. Feel free to make a connection though.
     
  10. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Yekcidmij, I see you are a Calvinist and I note that Calvinism is of Jewish origin. Calvin’s real name was Cohen. When he went from Geneva to France he became known as Cauin. Then in England it became Calvin. At the B’nai B’rith celebrations held in Paris, France, in 1936, Calvin, was enthusiastically acclaimed to have been of Jewish descent.

    So what is your personal position on Israel and rebuilding of new current Temple in Israel?
     
  11. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +3,744
    Lutheran
    Married
    I am sorry that you are not open to real discussion when such discussion opposes your views. Your vitriolic reply shows that a nerve was touched; so sorry your mind is so closed.
     
  12. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I am only closed to prattle.

    The subject of the thread is "We’re Ready to Rebuild the Third Temple" how have your posts furthered that discussion at all?

    You Said:
    What motivated Luther's rhetoric was that God's chosen people were so blinded by the law that they did not recognize the Messiah, and therefore rejected our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Be mindful that the Catholic Church viewed Luther the same way; labeled him an outlaw.

    My ancestors are came to Canada because the Calvinists confiscated our Churches, imprisoned our Clergy, and even burnt some of us at the stake in Alsace. Poor Jews, Poor Lutherans, Poor everyone! Get a straw and suck it up.

    What point did the post below touch in you that promted your off-subject reply? Please try to stay on subject:

    Martin Luther was in his later life one of the most noted Jew Haters (Anti-Semites) in "Christian" history.

    “Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough.

    Luther also urged that “safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews,” and that “all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.” What Jews could do was to have “a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade” put into their hands so “young, strong Jews and Jewesses” could “earn their bread in the sweat of their brow.”

    These fierce comments have puzzled and embarrassed Christians who otherwise admire the Reformer. And they have led to charges that Luther was “one of the ‘church fathers’ of anti-Semitism.” More seriously, Luther’s attacks have been seen as paving the way for Hitler.

    Was Luther anti-Semitic? How should we understand his words?

    “Receive Jews Cordially”
    In 1523, Luther accused Catholics of being unfair to Jews and treating them “as if they were dogs,” thus making it difficult for Jews to convert. “I would request and advise that one deal gently with them [the Jews],” he wrote. “ … If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, hear our Christian teaching, ...
    Read the rest of the Christianity Today article by clicking> Was Luther Anti-Semitic?
     
  13. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    GOD'S PLAN FOR ISRAEL,
    AND WHY IT MATTERS


    by Sam Nadler
    God's Plan for Israel and Why It Matters, Sam Nadler - messianic

    As you read this [November, 2010 - ed.], the Word of Messiah ministry team is preparing to go back to Israel this month for our on-going ministry in that troubled Holy Land. Though some may question why we even bother, understanding God’s plan for Israel clarifies this issue, and leads us to pray and do all we can to reach out to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

    Israel Past: Chosen to Serve
    Why did God choose Israel to begin with? People have speculated that perhaps God chose Israel because of our “communication skills” (so many Jewish comedians!); or our supposed “ability with money” (except in my family!), or even a new stereotype: because we’re all so good looking!

    Nice try, but those who know me would never believe that! But, seriously, why did God choose Israel? God chose Israel, not because Israel was the greatest of peoples, but because we were, in fact, the least:

    For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    - Deuteronomy 7:6-8 -

    Though God did choose Israel and called us to be priests to the nations (Exodus19:5,6), we were not the most spiritual of peoples, but rather, God calls us a “stiff-necked” people: Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people (Deuteronomy 9:6).

    Amazingly, God sovereignly chose to love Israel because of their weaknesses, in order to demonstrate this principle: His grace according to His promise is sufficient for any person to trust in for their own existence and fulfillment (see 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Corinthians 12:8-10). Thus we see why Israel was chosen: to be God’s instrument of love expressed to the entire world. This blessing of love and grace would be ultimately personified in Yeshua, the seed of Abraham, Messiah of Israel and Savior of the world (Genesis 12:3, Galatians 3:14; Romans 9:5).

    Israel Present: Service Suspended
    In Romans 11 Israel is typified as “natural branches” broken off of the “olive tree.” This olive tree is a picture of Israel’s service for God, as every part of the olive tree was used in Temple service (wood, oil, etc.). For the past two thousand years Israel’s spiritual service has been temporarily suspended, like a train is sidetracked while it undergoes repairs. At the present time, though the nation on the whole has rejected Him, there is a remnant of the Jewish people that do believe in Yeshua (Jesus): Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace (Romans 11:5). So what is happening now? Hardly a day goes by without some news of terrorism or warfare in Israel. Why? Rather than ‘occupying the land of Palestine’, Israel is simply endeavoring to survive in the very land promised and given to their forefathers by God Himself. And there’s the rub: Sinful, fallen man resents a holy God, and thus resents the very people who are a reminder of God’s existence. The propaganda and military war of terror against the only Jewish nation on earth is simply the outplay of the spiritual war headed by Satan himself. This Adversary of God and Man operates through the lives of lost people in an attempt to destroy Israel, which would thus negate God’s promises to Israel. But God will keep His promises, and though the Body of Messiah, made up of Jews and Gentiles, is presently God’s instrument of service in the world, one day Israel will be restored!

    Israel Future: Service Restored
    The Olive Tree also reminds of the restoration of Israel’s spiritual service for God. This restoration will occur at the end of the future Tribulation period, after the “times of the Gentiles” are fulfilled (Luke 21:24), and the nations led by the Anti-Messiah have ‘filled up’ their rebellion against God. In that day, the world’s attempt at a “Final Solution” regarding Israel and “those Jews” will be the catalyst for the Second Coming of Messiah, Who will then destroy His enemies at Armegeddon. (see Romans 11:25; Luke 21:24, Revelation 16:16). To all the nations of the earth God Himself has sternly warned, And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:9). Unfortunately, man in his pride doesn’t believe God, and as David wrote in Psalm 2, they take their stand, and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah. It is at the end of the Tribulation period, the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), that surviving Israel will trust in Yeshua and be grafted back into the ‘olive tree’, even as Paul prophesied – and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:23-27). According to the prophet Zechariah, in the future, Israel will look unto Messiah, whom they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10), confess their sin of rejecting Him (see Isaiah 53), and at that time Israel will be cleansed of their sins through His atonement (Zechariah 13:1). Zechariah then states that the result of Israel’s “looking to Messiah” will be His return to planet Earth to rescue them, And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). This correlates perfectly with the New Covenant teaching that Messiah will not return until Israel repents nationally, as Yeshua said, Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:38,39). In that day Israel’s repentance and trust in Yeshua will usher in the Messianic kingdom period declared by all of Israel’s prophets (Acts 3:19-22).

    God is Faithful
    Though the enemies of God have consistently attempted to destroy Israel to thwart the work and redemptive plan of God (see Psalm 83:1-6), through it all God has faithfully kept Israel even to this day! Understanding God’s plan for Israel helps all believers understand why Paul, the ‘Apostle to Gentiles’, always ministered to the Jews first. Paul knew that God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (Romans 11:2), and Paul’s preaching to Israel was evidence of God’s faithfulness.

    Since God has been faithful to His people - even though by and large they have not believed Him - we who have believed Him can have confidence of our salvation in Messiah Yeshua, for He who promised is faithful! In fact, your prayers and support of our work to bring the Good News to Jewish people around the world each month, and in Israel this month, is actually a living demonstration that you trust in God’s promises! Thanks, and please remember, Pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6).
     
  14. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Are Israel and the church the same thing?
    Are Israel and the church the same thing? Does God still have a plan for Israel?

    Question: "Are Israel and the church the same thing? Does God still have a plan for Israel?"

    Answer:
    This topic is one of the more controversial in the Church today, and it has significant implications regarding the way we interpret Scripture, especially concerning the end times. More importantly, it has great significance in that it affects the way we understand the very nature and character of God Himself.

    Romans 11:16-36 records the illustration of the olive tree. This passage speaks of Israel the (“natural” branches) being broken off from the olive tree, and the Church (“wild” branches or shoots) being grafted into the olive tree. Since Israel is referred to as branches, as well as the Church, it stands to reason that neither group is the “whole tree,” so to speak; rather, the whole tree represents God’s workings with mankind as a whole. Therefore, God’s program with Israel and God’s program with the Church are part of the outworking of His purpose among men in general. Of course, this is not intended to mean that either program is of little significance. As many commentators have noted, more space is given in the Bible regarding God’s programs with Israel and with the Church than any of God’s other dealings!

    In Genesis 12, God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation (the Jews), the Jews would possess a land, that nation would be blessed above all other nations, and all other nations would be blessed from Israel. So, from the beginning God revealed that Israel would be His chosen people on the earth, but that His blessing would not be limited to them exclusively. Galatians 3:14 identifies the nature of the blessing to come to all the other nations: “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” All the nations of the world were blessed by Israel, through whom the Savior of the world came.

    God’s plan of redemption is built upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David and Abraham. But Christ’s death on the cross is sufficient for the sins of the entire world, not just the Jews! Galatians 3:6-8 states, “Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’” Finally, Galatians 3:29 says, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” In other words, in Christ, believers are counted righteous by faith in the same way that Abraham was (Galatians 3:6-8). If we are in Christ, then we are partakers of the blessing of Israel and all nations in the redemptive work of Christ. Believers become the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Believers do not become physical Jews, but they may enjoy the same type of blessings and privileges as the Jews.

    Now, this does not contradict or nullify the revelation given in the Old Testament. God’s promises in the Old Testament are still valid, and God’s relationship with Israel as a chosen people points to the work of Christ as a Redeemer of the whole world. The Mosaic Law is still mandatory for all Jews who have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah. Jesus did what they could not do—fulfill the Law in all its details (Matthew 5:17). As New Testament believers, we are no longer under the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13), because Christ has taken that curse upon Himself on the cross. The Law served two purposes: to reveal sin and mankind’s inability (on his own merit) to do anything about it, and to point us to Christ, who fulfills the Law. His death on the cross completely satisfies God’s righteous requirement of perfection.

    God’s unconditional promises are not invalidated by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is ever a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. No, God is sovereign over all things—past, present and future—and what He has foreordained for both Israel and the Church will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. Romans 3:3-4 explains that Israel’s unbelief would not nullify His promises concerning them: “What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: ‘So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.’"

    Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. We can be sure that all God has said is true and will take place, because of His character and consistency. The Church does not replace Israel and should not expect a symbolic fulfillment of the promises of the Old Covenant As one reads Scripture, it is necessary to keep Israel and the Church separate.
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Then do you believe that the apostles originally addressed in Matthew 24 saw Jesus Christ's Second Coming in Matthew 24:29-31?

    Note that the new information is that the "buildings" in Matthew 24:1-2 can include the Wailing Wall.

    What reason do you have to reject it?

    The connection is that nothing requires that the "not one stone" idea of Matthew 24:2 is hyperbole, just as nothing requires that the "not one" ideas in Romans 3:12, Luke 12:6, and Matthew 18:10 are hyperbole.
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that it isn't, as far as God is concerned. For on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52) of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

    All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

    The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

    Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for He did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for He could not possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

    As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with His own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow His disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

    That's right.

    For even though the Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the Church does not "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the Church are grafted in by God to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which includes the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1).

    Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
     
  17. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Thanks for your points in your post Bible2+.
     
  18. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +3,744
    Lutheran
    Married
    Like many sects of Christianity today, Hitler picked and chose what he quoted, not to inquire about what was right and what was wrong, but only to justify his own personal agenda.

    Yes, there was racism then; rampant among the Christians (and others), and it was wrong then; It still is. The US President condemns information that contradicts his policy as "fake news"; taking only what he wants, and discarding the rest. Our present PM is not much different up here in Canada.

    Luther was a man like you and I, and we all have our failings.

    BTW, it is you who took this thread off topic by playing the anti-Semite card.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  19. The Gryphon

    The Gryphon Well-Known Member

    520
    +220
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Yep, you busted me. So now can you try to stay on the subject for a change?
     
  20. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +3,744
    Lutheran
    Married
    That's mature!:oldthumbsup:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...