Ways to make men fall in love with you?

[I Art Laughing]

Oh not not at all. I'm incredibly grateful to have been brought up in a non-Christian household so have none of the issues surrounding sex that many of my friends have who were brought up in Christian households.

Our opinions intersect somewhere here, I'm not a big fan of much of the "Church" because I think it is to bent on legalism (death), in a sense that it is too conservative on the human opinion side. I think a lot of scripture is misinterpreted and there is a lot of misunderstanding posing as tradition. I do have a question everything (especially human authority) mentality, but I try to make my backstop the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

I guess I'm a "natural" product of hippies come pietist plain folks.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That's not logical. Sarah and Elizabeth and Hannah were special cases. Those are called "miracles" for a reason. Out of the billions of women who have gone through menopause, there's three or four listed in the Bible as exceptions and those are marked as special cases.

That's like saying any virgin is likely to get pregnant because Mary did.




You are missing the point and not really reading what I'm writing. I never said people who use BC are trying to get pregnant. (What morons would they be if they were, eh?)

I said that couples who use BC can still be open to having a child if pregnancy does occur - which it sometimes does because, as you noted, BC isn't always 100% effective.

And I know this because I'm one of those people who uses BC but am still open to the possibility of having a child if it happens.




You're going to need to site a source for this. How do you know?

My mom said each of her four kids was a failed BC method.



Um... yeah, that's the whole point of NFP. But people using it don't abstain all the time - just during fertile times. Because they want to have sex without procreating.


You know, there's a reason 85-95% of Catholic couples don't agree with the Catholic Church's official stance on BC. It doesn't really stand the logic test.

Well, you made a blanket statement, and I showed you the holes, and then I made a blanket statement, and you showed me the holes. Blanket statements usually have holes.

There's a difference in attitude-BC users want to have sex whenever they want but avoid consequences. NFP users do not have sex whenever they want in order to avoid the consequences.

Of course, people misuse everything under the sun, including Catholics.

The Catholic faith is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter whether people agree or not. But you'll need to provide a source for that 85-95% statistic. How do you know?

 

[Tamara224]

They have been heavily influenced, and not in a good way by radical feminism too.

Oh yeah, the idea that women are people who like sex too and who should be able to have a say in when, where and with whom they have sex has been a real blow to the patriarchy, alright.

 

[JaneFW]

Our opinions intersect somewhere here, I'm not a big fan of much of the "Church" because I think it is to bent on legalism (death), in a sense that it is too conservative on the human opinion side. I think a lot of scripture is misinterpreted and there is a lot of misunderstanding posing as tradition. I do have a question everything (especially human authority) mentality, but I try to make my backstop the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

I guess I'm a "natural" product of hippies come pietist plain folks.

What? You who rants about hippies? Shome mishtake shurely.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Who says that sex is for communion between husband and wife? Certainly not any of the church fathers who despised it.

This view of sex is still messed up, neurotic if ou will. It treats the act of sex with suspicion and dislike but will concede to it as necessary if done for the act of procreation. IOW sex for pleasures sake is not good, there has to be another reason to have sex that isn't so hedonistic.





Yes, our modern attitudes to sex have been heavily influenced by secularism.

...which is proven to be the work of the devil.

The primary purposes of marital relations are procreation and spousal unity (babies and bonding), but that does not mean that the husband and wife are not supposed to derive pleasure from their marital relations. Although pleasure is not a purpose of sex, it is important to fulfilling the purposes of sex.
God gave humans the capacity to enjoy food and sex in order to encourage them to fulfill the purposes of those human needs. A moral problem occurs only when deriving pleasure from food and sex is put above or in the place of its intended purpose. Someone who eats solely for pleasure, without regard for the needs of his body, abuses the privilege of eating. In the same way, someone who has sex solely for pleasure, without regard for its intended purposes of babies and bonding, abuses the privilege of sex.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Our opinions intersect somewhere here, I'm not a big fan of much of the "Church" because I think it is to bent on legalism (death), in a sense that it is too conservative on the human opinion side. I think a lot of scripture is misinterpreted and there is a lot of misunderstanding posing as tradition. I do have a question everything (especially human authority) mentality, but I try to make my backstop the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

I guess I'm a "natural" product of hippies come pietist plain folks.

I can relate to the hippie part. When I was growing up, our bibles even had pictures of hippies on the front. My family was heavily influenced by the Jesus Movement, which was a time when revival struck a large number of hippies, so much of the Christians we knew, still had remnants of hippieness.

 

[JaneFW]

God gave humans the capacity to enjoy food and sex in order to encourage them to fulfill the purposes of those human needs. A moral problem occurs only when deriving pleasure from food and sex is put above or in the place of its intended purpose. Someone who eats solely for pleasure, without regard for the needs of his body, abuses the privilege of eating. In the same way, someone who has sex solely for pleasure, without regard for its intended purposes of babies and bonding, abuses the privilege of sex.

And so we come back full circle to the reality that an obsession with sex (or with eating or drinking alcohol) is unhealthy and sinful, and is not the purpose for which God made us.

 

[Tamara224]

Well, you made a blanket statement, and I showed you the holes, and then I made a blanket statement, and you showed me the holes. Blanket statements usually have holes.

LOL. Ummm... okaaaay. I'm going to go ahead and assume that this means you're backing off of your claim that most people who get pregnant despite BC get abortions because you don't actually have any evidence of that fact.

Also, go back and read my post. I said couples who use BC "can" be still open. I said nary a word about how many couples actually are. That's not a "blanket statement."

There's a difference in attitude-BC users want to have sex whenever they want but avoid consequences. NFP users do not have sex whenever they want in order to avoid the consequences.

Okay, but they're still having sex without the desire or intent to have a baby.

Wiggle as much as you will.... there's really no getting around the FACT that the whole point of NFP is to have sex and NOT procreate.

Of course, people misuse everything under the sun, including Catholics.

Yeah, those policy-makers in the RCC like to misuse logic, apparently.

The Catholic faith is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter whether people agree or not. But you'll need to provide a source for that 85-95% statistic. How do you know?

My Take: 'Real Catholics' not opposed to birth control – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

According to a 2011 Guttmacher Institute survey, “only 2% of Catholic women rely on natural family planning.” A 2002 survey found that Catholic women in the United States were more likely than American women as a whole to use the birth control pill, and only slightly less likely to use a condom. In a 2000 poll that strikes even closer to the heart of this debate, 90% of American Catholic women surveyed said they wanted to see access to birth control services at community hospitals.
Turning from behaviors to beliefs, it is clear that the majority of U.S. Catholics also disagree with church teachings on contraception. According to a 2005 Harris poll, 90% of U.S. Catholics support the use of birth control.

 

[Athene]

...which is proven to be the work of the devil.

The primary purposes of marital relations are procreation and spousal unity (babies and bonding), but that does not mean that the husband and wife are not supposed to derive pleasure from their marital relations. Although pleasure is not a purpose of sex, it is important to fulfilling the purposes of sex.
God gave humans the capacity to enjoy food and sex in order to encourage them to fulfill the purposes of those human needs. A moral problem occurs only when deriving pleasure from food and sex is put above or in the place of its intended purpose. Someone who eats solely for pleasure, without regard for the needs of his body, abuses the privilege of eating. In the same way, someone who has sex solely for pleasure, without regard for its intended purposes of babies and bonding, abuses the privilege of sex.

What is proven to be the work of the devil?

It's interesting you mention bonding, pleasure is the mechanism by which bonding occurs due to the stimulation and release of hormones. Therefore, if you only ever have sex with the one partner, it is impossible to have sex purely for pleasure. Likewise, it is impossible to eat only for pleasure - even morbidly obese people need to eat and a diet of junk food will still provide the body with vital nutrients.

Human females are only fertile for a few days every month, yet can feel the desire to have sex at any point in her cycle. For some women, the point in her cycle where she is most sexually receptive is the point where it is all but impossible for her to conceive, just before or during menstruation. Pregnant women report their libido's going through the roof. Are these urges normal, natural, healthy and good and a sign that we're meant to be sexual beings who are to enjoy sex? Or are they, as many have believed, disgusting unholy urges that need to be resisted to show how pure we are?

 

[Root of Jesse]

LOL. Ummm... okaaaay. I'm going to go ahead and assume that this means you're backing off of your claim that most people who get pregnant despite BC get abortions because you don't actually have any evidence of that fact.

Also, go back and read my post. I said couples who use BC "can" be still open. I said nary a word about how many couples actually are. That's not a "blanket statement."




Okay, but they're still having sex without the desire or intent to have a baby.

Wiggle as much as you will.... there's really no getting around the FACT that the whole point of NFP is to have sex and NOT procreate.



Yeah, those policy-makers in the RCC like to misuse logic, apparently.





My Take: 'Real Catholics' not opposed to birth control – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

I wouldn't hold a blog as the truth, not without something behind it. Especially regarding the Catholic Church.

Your facts are not facts, who are you to see inside people's hearts? You have no idea what 'they' think. The truth is that God gave us a way to not have 26 children, which was your whole point to begin with. You said that BC allowed women to not die so young and to not die due to having so many children. I said 1)that it did no such thing, that medical advancement did that, and 2)there's no reason for women to use ABC and that there's a form of family planning that doesn't use contraception and is as effective, if not more so, and doesn't involve hormones, and doesn't subvert the will of God for what sex is for, which is procreative, primarily, and unitive, secondarily. Then you went into the couple's state of mind and said that BC users and NFP users have the same state of mind. I've shown you that they don't, when NFP is done the way it's supposed to be done. BC users want to have sex whenever they want to, with no consequences. NFP users do not.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What is proven to be the work of the devil?

You said "Yes, our modern attitudes to sex have been heavily influenced by secularism. "

It's interesting you mention bonding, pleasure is the mechanism by which bonding occurs due to the stimulation and release of hormones. Therefore, if you only ever have sex with the one partner, it is impossible to have sex purely for pleasure. Likewise, it is impossible to eat only for pleasure - even morbidly obese people need to eat and a diet of junk food will still provide the body with vital nutrients.

Actually, you're wrong. I have a very intense sex life with the one woman I married, and after 25 years of marriage, it's still great.
But pleasure is the secondary purpose of sex.

Human females are only fertile for a few days every month, yet can feel the desire to have sex at any point in her cycle. For some women, the point in her cycle where she is most sexually receptive is the point where it is all but impossible for her to conceive, just before or during menstruation. Pregnant women report their libido's going through the roof. Are these urges normal, natural, healthy and good and a sign that we're meant to be sexual beings who are to enjoy sex? Or are they, as many have believed, disgusting unholy urges that need to be resisted to show how pure we are?

Yes, and so what? Who has believed them to be disgusting unholy urges? Names please? Certainly not Catholics. St. Catherine of Siena was the last of 22 children in her family...Many Catholic families are quite large. Sex is not unholy, never was, never will be. Wrongful use of sex, as food, certainly. And that would be different for each person. I gain weight if I smell chocolate, my wife eats it like it's going out of style, and never gains a pound.

 

[chaz345]

I wouldn't hold a blog as the truth, not without something behind it. Especially regarding the Catholic Church.

Your facts are not facts, who are you to see inside people's hearts? You have no idea what 'they' think. The truth is that God gave us a way to not have 26 children, which was your whole point to begin with. You said that BC allowed women to not die so young and to not die due to having so many children. I said 1)that it did no such thing, that medical advancement did that, and 2)there's no reason for women to use ABC and that there's a form of family planning that doesn't use contraception and is as effective, if not more so, and doesn't involve hormones, and doesn't subvert the will of God for what sex is for, which is procreative, primarily, and unitive, secondarily. Then you went into the couple's state of mind and said that BC users and NFP users have the same state of mind. I've shown you that they don't, when NFP is done the way it's supposed to be done. BC users want to have sex whenever they want to, with no consequences. NFP users do not.

I guess I'm a little confused as to Catholic doctrine regarding birth control though. Since God can cause a pregnancy, or not, whether birth control is being used or not, and can cause a pregnancy, or nor, when NFP is being used, what's the difference? Aren't both BC and NFP an attempt to override God's will?

 

[Athene]

The Catholic faith is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter whether people agree or not. But you'll need to provide a source for that 85-95% statistic. How do you know?

Yes it is, and yes it does. You can't stop progress.

 

[JaneFW]

Wrongful use of sex, as food, certainly. And that would be different for each person. I gain weight if I smell chocolate, my wife eats it like it's going out of style, and never gains a pound.

BUT .. is the sinfulness in you to eat one piece of chocolate and gain weight, or for your wife to "eat like it's going out of style" and not gain weight? Or neither? I thought that the sin was gluttony. Not accusing your wife of gluttony, but it's the sinful use of food rather than just "gaining weight". I mean, pregnant women gain weight just from the extra fluid, growing baby, body storing fat - all without any sinfulness on the part of the woman. A bodybuilder will gain muscle weight. No sinfulness there either (so long as s/he isn't shooting up on steroids.)

 

[chaz345]

But pleasure is the secondary purpose of sex.

Actually I'd put it third, after procreation and the emotional bonding that it facilitates/enhances. But then again that bonding may be a byproduct of the pleasure.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually I'd put it third, after procreation and the emotional bonding that it facilitates/enhances. But then again that bonding may be a byproduct of the pleasure.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I guess I'm a little confused as to Catholic doctrine regarding birth control though. Since God can cause a pregnancy, or not, whether birth control is being used or not, and can cause a pregnancy, or nor, when NFP is being used, what's the difference? Aren't both BC and NFP an attempt to override God's will?

No, using BC is trying to stop God's will, NFP is trying to work with God's will.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes it is, and yes it does. You can't stop progress.

In what way? Jesus did not run a popularity contest. And when he said something controversial, he didn't stop people from turning their backs on him. This is true today. God gives you whatever you love the most, even if it's not Him.

 

[Root of Jesse]

BUT .. is the sinfulness in you to eat one piece of chocolate and gain weight, or for your wife to "eat like it's going out of style" and not gain weight? Or neither? I thought that the sin was gluttony. Not accusing your wife of gluttony, but it's the sinful use of food rather than just "gaining weight". I mean, pregnant women gain weight just from the extra fluid, growing baby, body storing fat - all without any sinfulness on the part of the woman. A bodybuilder will gain muscle weight. No sinfulness there either (so long as s/he isn't shooting up on steroids.)

Gluttony is sinful, for certain. Even scrupulosity (thinking everything you do is a sin) is sinful. Anything to excess is usually a sin.
No, my wife does not eat chocolate like it's going out of style, it just seems like it to me...
With the bodybuilder, he might have a problem with narcissism...

 

[chaz345]

No, using BC is trying to stop God's will, NFP is trying to work with God's will.

How? I mean by knowingly avoiding sex during the times when she's most likely to conceive, aren't you attempting to control how many kids you have in much the same way that you are when you use BC?

Personally it is my opinion that to believe that anything we do in terms of controlling the number of kids we have, can thwart God's plan for us is rather arrogant. Spoken as one whose third child was conceived 2 years after my wife's tubes were tied.