Was there such a thing as controlling behavior in the early 1900s and before that?

[Neostarwcc]

Naturally there have always been men (and women) wh have physically abused their wives (and husbands)

But that isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about all of this crap that's been rising since the mid 50s called feminism where basically any woman that wants to live for God and her husband is "opressed" and every Godly man that wants to run a tight household is considered a controlling, sexist, a d vindictive "monster".

Dont believe me? Do any google for "what is controlling behavior." 99.9% of the websites will blame Godly men who want to live for God and call them controllinf,sexist, and vindictive "monsters" (as if women could never have this seemingly new quality of behavior)


I'm asking this because all of my grandparents grew up this way. My moms mother raised nine kids while my grandfather took care of a farm and then later worked on furnaces to support his wife and household. Ditto my dads parents.


When his grandkids grew up he asked us all how we were going to support our wives and family since most of us were 18+ and had no jobs.

My parents nor my aunts and uncles never considered this behavior abnormal. And trust me a lot of the "controlling" features that apparently exist today? My grandfather DEFINITELY had. Dont even get me started with how he treated his wife when he was drunk. Yet he and my grandmother were married for almost 60 years before my grandfather passed away nine years ago. They would STILL be married if they were still alive.

My grandmother never considered herself abused or oppressed. She never considered her life wasted she and many women of that age just wanted to live for God and wanted to live Godly lives. A trait that seems to be completely absent today.

Is my interpretation of the past correct? Was there no such thing as "controlling" behavior 100+ years ago? And if there was, why did so many marriages last back then and why do we have the divorce epidemic of the last 30 years or so? In my life I've seen many divorces most by women who thought they were "oppressed". My grandfather used to tell me back in the 20s hardly any people got divorced and marriages lasted.

Obviously divorces have happened since the days of Noah and before that but has controlling behavior really been a thing in the past? And why all of a sudden during Christs return becoming nearer and nearer have we thought so?

Also am I correct that a majority of the world believed in Chrisy between the year 1,000 until around the last hundred years or so around when feminism began? Not to mention the legalization of abortion crisis? And now full term abortion crisis?

Not trying to start a flame war Im just genuinely interested as to why the world has forgotten about God and why so many Godly women have a abandoned God. If... I'm even right about all this stuff anyway. Maybe I'm not. That's what we're discussing in a humane way.

 

[timewerx]

I think the biggest problem with people today is bloated sense of entitlement/privilege and unrealistic expectations.

I'm actually a Christian who believes in equal authority / leadership of the Husband and Wife in a relationship.

I'm aware of all the verses in the Bible saying the wife should submit to Husband, etc, etc. But after many years of studying the Bible very carefully, it would seem the mainstream understanding of those teachings are wrong.

For example, God in Genesis wasn't at all commanding Eve to submit to Adam. God was simply enumerating the consequences of their sin. Consequences vs commands, two entirely different things.... And then Apostle Paul - He adapted his teachings according to the culture of his audiences which Paul clearly wrote in the Bible.... That pretty much settles it.... Then we go back to God in Genesis - If God is enumerating the consequences of man's sin, then what was Eve's role prior to their sin?

Eve's role as a "helper" to Adam isn't an inferior nor submissive role..... Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as a helper to us... Does the Holy Spirit submit to us??

Most people see "helper" according to our culture which usually stands for "assistant" - someone of less importance in our extremely hierarchal, not to mention, unGodly society.

GOING BACK TO TOPIC.

Big issues concerning control-abuse also surface in "equal leadership marriage or families". And it's usually about the high expectations and bloated sense of entitlement.

 

[com7fy8]

When his grandkids grew up he asked us all how we were going to support our wives and family since most of us were 18+ and had no jobs.

My parents nor my aunts and uncles never considered this behavior abnormal.

Dont even get me started with how he treated his wife when he was drunk.

Well, it is clear the Bible says for men to work.

Are you saying he abused her?

 

[Archivist]

Also am I correct that a majority of the world believed in Chrisy between the year 1,000 until around the last hundred years or so around when feminism began?

Who is Chrisy? I don’t know of anytime in history when majority believed in anyone by that name.

 

[Josheb]

Is my interpretation of the past correct?

No. It is woefully myopic.

Was there no such thing as "controlling" behavior 100+ years ago?

Obviously divorces have happened since the days of Noah and before that but has controlling behavior really been a thing in the past?

There was most certainly controlling behavior 100+ years ago. CB has existed since Genesis 3 when Adam threw his wife under the bus rather than accept responsibility for his own disobedience.

And if there was, why did so many marriages last back then and why do we have the divorce epidemic of the last 30 years or so?

Various reasons depending on era and locale but one of the chief reasons is because marriages were contracts and families were economic units. Divorce rates have always ebbed and flowed. During the US industrial revolution there was a greater percentage of permanent spousal separations and abandonment that don't generally get counted in divorce stats. Divorce rates in England are about fifty percent less than what they were ten years ago. Historically divorce rates are higher in urban areas over rural areas. Catholics have half the divorce rate as Prots. Arranged marriages have a higher success rate (depending on how "success" is defined).

And why all of a sudden during Christs return becoming nearer and nearer have we thought so?

Christ's return is not near. While there may be some correlation between eschatology and divorce I am unaware of any causal relationship having ever been established.

Also am I correct that a majority of the world believed in [Christ] between the year 1,000 until around the last hundred years or so around when feminism began?

No, you are not correct. See HERE.

Not to mention the legalization of abortion crisis? And now full term abortion crisis?

Much of the world has always killed unborn babies and deformed, less healthy, or female born babies. China kills babies at a rate that makes the US look amateurish and their divorce rate is low at 8%.

Im just genuinely interested as to why the world has forgotten about God...

Genesis 6:5 and John 3:19-20.

...and why so many Godly women have a abandoned God.

Except for the Orthodox Church women outnumber men in Christianity. This has long been the case.

If... I'm even right about all this stuff anyway. Maybe I'm not. That's what we're discussing in a humane way.

Very little in the o is correct. Bad info leads to bad thinking, bad thinking leads to bad practice.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Well, it is clear the Bible says for men to work.

Are you saying he abused her?

Well that's a long story and it mostly was not his fault. He abused his wife and grandkids to a point. Well at least, what's considered abuse today. I don't really know if it was the norm in the 1950's when my mom and aunts and uncles grew up.

I just know that starting in the 90's when he started verbally abusing me and his multiple other grandkids we all considered him a mean old man who hated his wife because he was constantly yelling at her and telling her what to do. We had no inkling of what the Bible was because most of us were never raised religious.

The only time I ever saw a church was when my Dad's Dad took me to a Protestant church when I was very little. Strangely enough I converted to Protestantism back in 2013 because I massively respected my dad's dad and he was my favorite grandfather.

Plus, I believe protestants have the right interpretation of scripture so there's that too.

But honestly? I think grandpa just saw that his grandkids were running wild in his eyes because he was raised in the 20's where things were different wanted to raise his grandkids the same way he raised his kids.

And honestly? I was a wild kid. I swore in front of my parents, something that NEVER happened when he raised his kids. I mistreated them, something that the bible said never to do. I barely ever listened to them. So honestly? I did deserve the same punishments that my grandfather gave his children and I don't and shouldn't blame my grandfather for trying to lead his grandkids in the right direction. He loved us and he loved me.

He wanted all of us to grow up to take care of our families and to work and become great Catholics (He and his parents were Catholics).

But when I was growing up I had no idea. I thought he was just a mean old man who had an alcohol problem like my dad. Which, was half true.

I half blamed myself for his abuse because he didn't start drinking until I was around three or four years old
or so. Same with I blaming myself for my fathers abuse.

He started drinking when I was about three or four years old. So in the beginning of my life to my mid 20's or so, all I saw was him verbally abusing his wife and grandkids. He used to hit his kids as my grandmother too (But this was the norm when my mom and her brother and sisters were kids.) This was the late/80's 1990 or so. What I didn't know about my grandfather was that he had a mini stroke when I was seven and that was most of the reason we moved to the states was so that my mom could be closer to her father in case he had another stroke again.

He ended up having another big stroke when I was in highschool which left him in the hospital/nursing home for several months mostly crippled.

During those several months I visited my grandfather almost everyday and we started getting closer. There was one time in the middle of it where they thought he was going to die and the whole family flew over to see him before he died.

I remember to this day going up to him and asking him "Do you remember me Grandpa?" and he studied me really hard and he said "Yes, you're Kathy's boy" (My mom's nickname is Kathy and her real name is Katherine) He couldn't remember my name because the stroke had mostly fried his brain but, he knew me and remembered me. I broke down into tears and he asked me why I was crying and I said "nothing grandpa" and I ran out of the room and one of my cousins had to console me. It was a sad time because


He ended up not dying and living for about seven more years. He had another stroke that crippled him completely and permanently shortly after that and he had to spend the rest of his life in the nursing home. But during those seven years he barely remembered anything except for his wife. He never forgot her name, he never forgot that he wanted to be with her, and he never forgot about how much he missed her even though she tried to visit him several times a week (She had to take the bus because she never got her license and neither did my dad's mom.) Anyway, for the next seven years he was miserable because he couldn't be with his wife and family and had to be cooped up in a nursing home. I was partially to blame because I lived with my parents until I was 26 years old and he died when I was 24. So... he never got to be with his wife and it's just such a sad and tragic ending.

But he and my grandmother loved each other so much that they got married only knowing each other for not even 2 weeks and they were married for almost 60 years (not a joke). Today, that would be unheard of and no man or woman would EVER jump into marriage that early. But, my grandparents knew they were made for each other, they knew they were brought together by God, and they were serious about their wedding vows for better or for worse.

Those kinds of marriages are almost all gone. It's just kinda sad.

Idk, for all the "abuse" that my grandfather dished out on his family? I don't blame him. I was physically and verbally abused by my own father for well over 20 years. I don't blame my father I blame the alcohol that he hides behind. One day he will have a stroke like grandpa and will be forced to quit like grandpa and odds are I'd have my old Father back that I have memories of deep down inside my brain from all those years ago.

Because, after grandpa was forced to quit drinking? He was back to the way my mom remembered him as a kid.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I think the biggest problem with people today is bloated sense of entitlement/privilege and unrealistic expectations.

I'm actually a Christian who believes in equal authority / leadership of the Husband and Wife in a relationship.

I'm aware of all the verses in the Bible saying the wife should submit to Husband, etc, etc. But after many years of studying the Bible very carefully, it would seem the mainstream understanding of those teachings are wrong.

For example, God in Genesis wasn't at all commanding Eve to submit to Adam. God was simply enumerating the consequences of their sin. Consequences vs commands, two entirely different things.... And then Apostle Paul - He adapted his teachings according to the culture of his audiences which Paul clearly wrote in the Bible.... That pretty much settles it.... Then we go back to God in Genesis - If God is enumerating the consequences of man's sin, then what was Eve's role prior to their sin?

Eve's role as a "helper" to Adam isn't an inferior nor submissive role..... Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as a helper to us... Does the Holy Spirit submit to us??

Most people see "helper" according to our culture which usually stands for "assistant" - someone of less importance in our extremely hierarchal, not to mention, unGodly society.

GOING BACK TO TOPIC.

Big issues concerning control-abuse also surface in "equal leadership marriage or families". And it's usually about the high expectations and bloated sense of entitlement.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Genesis 3:16 and 3:17-18 clearly list the roles of Adam and Eve and their Ancestors.

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."


Also this was God's plan from the very beginning (aside from the pains in childbirth that was a curse. He intended Childbirth to be painless and actually an enjoyable experience). He designed Eve (and woman) to be a helper and companion for Adam (and man) (see Genesis 2:18-25). So from the very beginning Eve was designed to be submissive to her husband. Both Adam and Eve listened to and obeyed God until well... you know the rest of the story.

You can call me sexist, you can call me a misogynistic pig, controlling, whatever. But that IS what the Bible says. It isn't just Genesis either and it wasn't changed during the new Covenant. Paul talked about it in Ephesians 5:33, 1 Corinthians 11:3, Colossians 3:18-19... the list goes on, Peter talked about the roles of husbands and wives in 1 Peter 3:1-7. Even Solomon talked about it in Proverbs 12:4 & Proverbs 31:10-31.

I mean how can women who want to live for God deny that their Godly roles are as the Bible says?

But people can still be Christians and debate the Bible all day long. I respect your beliefs but it isn't just one passage that says that women should submit to their husbands it's plenty and listed throughout almost the entire Bible.

Women have been "serving" their husbands for thousands of years now. It's worked well for thousands of years. Now all of a sudden they're oppressed because some men and women actually want to listen to the bible? Umm, no. Sorry I refuse to believe that.

Just because a woman has to submit to her husband in God's eyes does not mean that she is inferior to man in any way,shape,or form. If man thinks that THEN he is a controlling and sexist "pig". People have understood that for thousands of years, I don't understand now the sudden change.

And then there's Christian men & women who are divorcing their spouses at an alarming rate just because one side "listens" to the Bible. Jesus warned us against divorce. Our lives are supposed to be bound to our FIRST spouse. Not our seventh and eighth spouse. That IS adultery and you do not think that God is going to one day judge them for that? We ALL have to be judged one day whether we're the greatest Christians in God's eyes or whether we are in the horrifying Great White Throne Judgement.


Personally, I don't want to stand in front of Christ ashamed. I don't want to be ridiculed by Christ. I want to be PRAISED by Christ when I one day have to stand before him. Sorry I'm so "ancient" in my religious beliefs.

 

[timewerx]

to the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe

Not every woman experiences pain in natural childbirth. Natural means no anaesthetics, non CS, etc. Of course, there's also modern medical intervention.

Are these women sinning? Disobedient to God?

Genesis 3:16 and 3:17-18 clearly list the roles of Adam and Eve

.....and he will rule over you."

If that's a command, God would have told that to Adam instead of Eve. Because they are consequences, not commands.

Paul talked about it in Ephesians 5:33, 1 Corinthians 11:3, Colossians 3:18-19... the list goes on, Peter talked about the roles of husbands and wives in 1 Peter 3:1-7.

Paul also said he adapted his teachings according to the culture of his audiences and at the time, most cultures of those times are extremely patriarchal. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). Patriarchy is not unique to the Jews. Most Gentile cultures also practiced it.

Even Solomon talked about it in Proverbs 12:4 & Proverbs 31:10-31.

Those verses show a wife who runs a successful enterprise. A woman with great confidence, a capable leader, and exceptional in business. There's nothing in those verses about being a submissive wife.

Probably the worst verses to pick if you wish to prove that wives should submit to their husbands.

You can call me sexist, you can call me a misogynistic pig, controlling, whatever.

Nope, you're simply a fanatic to mainstream doctrines.

 

[Samaritan Woman]

So in the beginning of my life to my mid 20's or so, all I saw was him verbally abusing his wife and grandkids. He used to hit his kids as my grandmother too (But this was the norm when my mom and her brother and sisters were kids.)

My father, who was a Sunday going "Christian" and even a minister for a short time in our church, verbally abused both my mom and me while also enjoying taking out his frustrations across my face on a regular basis. He terrorized both of us and destroyed both our self-esteem and sense of self worth while twisting my mind.

But he and my grandmother loved each other so much that they got married only knowing each other for not even 2 weeks and they were married for almost 60 years (not a joke). Today, that would be unheard of and no man or woman would EVER jump into marriage that early. But, my grandparents knew they were made for each other, they knew they were brought together by God, and they were serious about their wedding vows for better or for worse.

Maybe if your grandmother and grandfather had had a longer courtship she would have found out what a violent drunk he was and not married him; she most probably could have found someone who treated her better and with respect. Also, I have friends who married their husbands after long standing friendships which explains their successful marriages. You can have a courtship of decent length and still have a committed marriage; a short duration does not translate to serious commitment because it is a mindset.

Idk, for all the "abuse" that my grandfather dished out on his family? I don't blame him. I was physically and verbally abused by my own father for well over 20 years. I don't blame my father I blame the alcohol that he hides behind.

I can't believe that you have trouble calling your grandfather's behavior abuse and don't hold him responsible; it was his duty to act like a mature man of tempered behavior. A man who systematically abuses people, especially those under him, is immature and self-serving who laughs at God without fear. As for the abuse you experienced by your alcoholic father it has obviously made you take the mantel of victim. Your father needs to behave like an adult.

 

[timewerx]

My parents nor my aunts and uncles never considered this behavior abnormal. And trust me a lot of the "controlling" features that apparently exist today? My grandfather DEFINITELY had. Dont even get me started with how he treated his wife when he was drunk. Yet he and my grandmother were married for almost 60 years before my grandfather passed away nine years ago. They would STILL be married if they were still alive.

Lack of complaint doesn't mean lack of abuse.

The Bible doesn't teach "subjective moralism".

"....The kindest acts of the wicked are still cruel" - Proverbs 12:10

 

[timewerx]

Not trying to start a flame war Im just genuinely interested as to why the world has forgotten about God and why so many Godly women have a abandoned God. If... I'm even right about all this stuff anyway. Maybe I'm not. That's what we're discussing in a humane way.

Not all Christians believe the same doctrine about marriage.

If you study the Bible very carefully and assume that women /wives cannot assume the role of a leader at home or in the church, you'll inevitably run into contradictions in the Bible.

And we all believe the Bible cannot contradict itself so the problem lies with us, with our understanding.

If you have doctrines that contradict Biblical teachings, you have to deal with it. It's not something you deal fingers crossed, it's not a big deal. Because it's a big deal.

 

[com7fy8]

Was there no such thing as "controlling" behavior 100+ years ago? And if there was, why did so many marriages last back then and why do we have the divorce epidemic of the last 30 years or so?

I don't know. Each person would need to speak for oneself.

Now, it is possible for people who are worldly to love each other. A wife can be so charmed by something about her man and her security, that she can be willing to marry and stay with an abuser. And/or . . . perhaps this is all she knows how to deal with. May be her father was an abusive drinker; so now she has no other concept of what a man in the house can be. I have heard ones say someone has married her father, or his mother, in choosing whom he or she chooses to marry. Ones, then, possibly don't know how to handle anything else that is not familiar to them.

But God's word is clear how leaders are to care for the people of God >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Even leaders are not to lord themselves over us, God's word is clear >

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as ones who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

And in Bible history we see that God has trusted specially chosen people to take care of His children. So . . . I think it is reasonable and basic, how if God Himself trusts someone to rule us and care for us, then certainly God who trusts the person expects us also to trust that one. But this means someone whom God really has selected and prepared and therefore who is qualified > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

Now . . . by the way, also > in 1 Timothy 3:1-10 I see that it says a man needs to do well with His own family > or else how can we know he would be able to "take care of the church of God" . . . if he "does not know how to rule his own house"? So, yes there is ruling by the husband, expected by God. But it needs to be the right way . . . with authority of his good example, included. And I think we can see how God means for him to rule his home in our Father's family caring and sharing way, then, so then he knows how to care for God's church . . . also in our Father's family caring and sharing way.

So . . . is being controlling and abusive God's way? Not according to 1 Peter 5:3 which says to rule by means of example. Example can have a very crucial effect. But controlling can leave people in a wrong character. while they change merely their outward acting; and then predators can put on the act that everyone is looking for . . . by the way. How do we all, then, need to be relating so our example is feeding people the right thing? >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Now God's word says the man is his lady's "head", right (Ephesians 5:23)? Well, even so, we have how we need to share in mutual submission. So, how can this work?

My opinion is that a husband is like the head, and the lady like the body . . . like how Jesus is our Head and we His body > again, Ephesians 5:23. But does Jesus just boss over us and control us? No. Jesus even was submissive to listening to ladies who were conversing with Him. And Jesus at times submitted to how ladies wanted to influence Him. But this was with their being submissive and obedient to His decisions. Things were mutual, then . . . when things were working that way.

I think we might see how in a human body, yes the head might rule the body, but the body gives the head feedback and the head rules in submission to and in consideration of the feelings and needs of the body. And the head can not survive without the body and without the head taking kind and good care of the body. And the body can not make it without a head . . . right?

So, I think we can see how God has us in His love even depending on one another. We are family with one another; God makes us essential to each other, even ministering His own grace to one another > Ephesians 4:29, with 1 Peter 4:9-10. So, now I can see how we are meant to be so that we are not be able to make it without each other > but this means how with the Holy Spirit we are living and relating >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

Ones can be so speaking against being controlled by some man or leader; yet, they can let evil things like bitterness and unforgiveness and raging anger and lusts control them!!

So, what works right is how we all are in the same love. And therefore all of us agree on what we are doing, anyway, so it doesn't really matter which of us is leading, then; so if the man is ruling, he is bringing about what his lady agrees on getting, and therefore she has been helping him.

So how can they have a problem with that?

He is not just controlling her for what he wants, not only using her. Love does not have us only controlling and using anyone. But with God we can pray and this brings us into agreement with God, not merely with one another.

But there are people who can agree, but they do not agree with the Holy Spirit.

There are marriages which might stay together, but they have abuse and their terrible example of arguing and complaining which can ruin children from knowing how to love and how to relate in marriage. And this is not what God wants to stay together, I would say, so it keeps going on and on. Rather, He desires how people change to find out how to love . . . like the scriptures I have quoted command.

By the way >

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:15)

So, there is no excuse for a man ever to get bitter. As soon as he can see that nasty and negative stuff starting in himself, he needs to stop immediately and trust God to correct him so he is loving his wife, before he says or does anything. Or else, what he does will come from what is anti-love.

So, that dominating and fighting stuff is what can be in a marriage that actually is a living divorce. Yes, they might act like they are staying together. But what is in the heart is what's really happening.

Also, Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46. Were those couples who stayed together really loving the way God says, in their marriages? Or were their marriages really essentially in-house divorces, and being used so they could try to get what they wanted to use each other to get? Plus, were they mainly, or even only, loving each other and their own children and other favorite family members, instead of being examples of how Jesus has us loving any and all people? So, staying in selfishly loving relationships and lasting in this is also what God does not at all want. He desires faithfulness to how Jesus has us loving and relating. Or else > "without Me you can do nothing." (in John 15:5) We now can see how "nothing" has come from people in selfish marriages and copy-cat religion.

The terrible example of selfishly loving marriages and abusive uncorrected marriages of religious people has helped to feed how now so many can not last in a marriage. They have been fed weakness of selfish and favoritistic love, so now they are not real and strong enough to relate in the way the Bible says to share in marriage. And now children of such marriages are seeing how their parents' religious ways and marital ways do not work; so the children have gone looking elsewhere . . . in more and more wrong places, instead of in Jesus.

Not trying to start a flame war Im just genuinely interested as to why the world has forgotten about God and why so many Godly women have a abandoned God. If... I'm even right about all this stuff anyway. Maybe I'm not. That's what we're discussing in a humane way.

Like I just offered above > some number of couples have married and then ensconced themselves in their ways of accepting abuse and going along with public church copy-catting. And children of this are finding out how they are not getting real love and satisfaction by obeying such parents. So, they depend on peers, instead, and peers take them also the wrong way. And they go on and on in desperation for some pleasure to make them feel better. But that doesn't work, either!!

Only with Jesus can we find "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

And forgive ones who have not fed us God's example, and have hope for them in prayer, if we still have them.

If people before us really did what works, it would still be working, in my opinion.