Hi there DH, I too have a keen interest in trying to find Christ in the OT. A couple of scriptures that I believe also attest to His pre-existence are Proverbs 8:22-31 and Proverbs 30:4.
Upvote
0
Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?
- Thread starter Saint Steven
- Start date
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I agree.
The "only begotten of the Father" indicates that someone (Jesus) was created as part of an ongoing process.
In fact, it begs the question: Was God a Father before Jesus? (have to search for OT references)
What's your take?
Upvote
0
I consider "Father" in reference to God as meaning "creator, progenitor of all things." 'Way back in 140 AD, the apologist Athenagoras pointed out that "father" and "son" in reference to the Father and Son in Christianity did not refer to a sexualized paternal relationship such as the pagans believed between Zeus and Herculese. Athenagoras could not explain exactly what it was, but he could explain what it was not.
Upvote
0
Wayne Gabler
Well-Known Member
God in Ge:1 was 'the word':
Ge:1:3:
And God said,
Let there be light:
and there was light.
Ge:1:6:
And God said,
Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Joh:1:1-2:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
This is when Jesus was authorized to add some details to OT prophecy:
Proverb:8:30-36:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
M't:17:4-7:
Then answered Peter,
and said unto Jesus,
Lord,
it is good for us to be here:
if thou wilt,
let us make here three tabernacles;
one for thee,
and one for Moses,
and one for Elias.
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.
And when the disciples heard it,
they fell on their face,
and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them,
and said,
Arise,
and be not afraid.
Re:1:1-3:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth,
and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
Ge:1:3:
And God said,
Let there be light:
and there was light.
Ge:1:6:
And God said,
Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Joh:1:1-2:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
This is when Jesus was authorized to add some details to OT prophecy:
Proverb:8:30-36:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
M't:17:4-7:
Then answered Peter,
and said unto Jesus,
Lord,
it is good for us to be here:
if thou wilt,
let us make here three tabernacles;
one for thee,
and one for Moses,
and one for Elias.
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.
And when the disciples heard it,
they fell on their face,
and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them,
and said,
Arise,
and be not afraid.
Re:1:1-3:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth,
and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
Upvote
0
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Very informative, thanks.
What is your answer to the topic title question?
Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?
Upvote
0
Wayne Gabler
Well-Known Member
Christ was the High Priest to God from Adam to Moses. He says some things directly, such as His level of wisdom and His witness of Ge:1. Proverbs:8
He was the one that talked to Abraham when God and the Holy Spirit (Ge:1:1-2) where about show Him how to melt a city. He uses the same fire on Satan's Babylon as He is pouring out the 7 vials.
In other places God is just giving some instructions, such as how to resurrect the 12 Tribes when Re:20:4 is unfolding.
Proverb:8:22-23:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
.
.
Proverb:8:30-36:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
Eze:37:1-4:
The hand of the LORD was upon me,
and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD,
and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about:
and,
behold,
there were very many in the open valley;
and,
lo,
they were very dry.
And he said unto me,
Son of man,
can these bones live?
And I answered,
O Lord GOD,
thou knowest.
Again he said unto me,
Prophesy upon these bones,
and say unto them,
O ye dry bones,
hear the word of the LORD.
.
.
Eze:37:26-28:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them,
and multiply them,
and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
My tabernacle also shall be with them:
yea,
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel,
when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Upvote
0
You cut John short. John also said:
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
And Paul told us:
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. -- Colossians 1
Are we going to debate whether both are talking about Jesus?
Upvote
0
Wayne Gabler
Well-Known Member
Let me fix that part about John.
John was called from the womb by God. His disciple wrote the Gospel of John and the Revelation of John, that makes the OT books, the ones Daniel wanted to have so he knew the full story;
Mal:3:1:
Behold,
I will send my messenger,
and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord,
whom ye seek,
shall suddenly come to his temple,
even the messenger of the covenant,
whom ye delight in: behold,
he shall come,
saith the LORD of hosts.
Lu:3:1-2:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea,
and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee,
and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis,
and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests,
the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
All prophets explain who sent them, John is referencing God from Ge:1:1 as that is 'the beginning':
Joh:1:1-8:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness;
and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John.
The same came for a witness,
to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light,
but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Upvote
0
- Aug 29, 2016
- 82
- 32
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Good post
Ps.104:24 O Jehovah, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all: The earth is full of thy riches.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).
Ps.104:24 O Jehovah, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all: The earth is full of thy riches.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
He is the Eternal Son who was together/alongside the Father sharing the same glory together with Him before creation. See John 17:5- And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
That verse parallels John 1:1- the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. cf Philippians 2:6- who although He existed in the form of God did not count equality with God something to be grasped.
hope this helps !!!
Upvote
0
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Thanks for joining the discussion.
In the John 17 verse, Jesus (the Son) is speaking, and making reference to his pre-existance with the one he THEN called Father.
The John 1 verse refers to the pre-existant one as the Word. And at verse 14 (see below) we learn that the Word BECAME flesh (Jesus).
Therefore, not Jesus BY NAME or function before the advent.
John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Upvote
0
Wayne Gabler
Well-Known Member
This is what I use to show Christ is directly involved in the OT. The verses before this is His wisdom that is used when He sits down in judgment of fallen angels and fallen men. The last few verses apply to the Matt:17 vision, that is when Jesus began to add some fine detail to some OT prophecy that is about Him, either as a mortal High Priest or as an immortal King who does away with all evil creations.
The only place that existed before Ge:1:1 was spoken into existence is Mount Sion from Hebrews:12. That is the angel's promised new heaven (Jacob's ladder where they ascend and are in their new home). That is also the location of the Great White Throne that would be where God judged the angels that are there as well as the men alive during the 1,000 years. Hebrews:12 is an expansion of what goes on at the Re:20 ending. It is a time of chastisement and forgiveness, then the sinless new earth era begins.
Most people will be like Adam and Eve at the end of day7 and all their children remain sinless for the eternity the new earth will exist. The ones in Zec:14 will stay in New Jerusalem, so they learn all that angels know in the shortest possible time.
Proverb:8:22-36:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
Heb:12:22-26:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.
Angels never leave there, they arrive a 'single' in a world populated with immortal beings that have a child of their own.
Are they ever given in marriage?
When they are, who does the 'giving', for them and the men that follow when they are as wise as angelic beings.
Upvote
0
The Son has always been the Son just as the Father has always been the Father and the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit. God is Eternal and Immutable. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from all Eternity.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Not a matter for discussion then? Okay.
Saint Steven said:
A couple more thoughts on this.
1) Perhaps the term "pre-incarnate" sheds some light on what I am driving at here.
2) Likewise, the NT Greek word Logos.
Upvote
0
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
No worries. Okay then.
Let's begin here.
What does the term "pre-incarnate" mean in this context?
Meaning, what's the difference between the incarnate Son, Jesus and the pre-incarnate Logos?
The Logos became flesh.
John 14:9 NIV
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip,
even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 37,457
- 26,887
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
He has always called and known Him As Father. Because as the Son He is co-eternal with the Father. There was never a time the Father was not Father, for the Father has always had His Son, the Son is co-eternal with the Father; being begotten without beginning. His "birth" from the Father never had beginning, and it will never end, His generation or birth from the Father--aka "only-begotten of the Father"--is eternal. He is God from the Father, as the Son and Word.
We call Him "Son" because He is Only-Begotten of the Father.
We call Him "Word" because He is the Reason and Wisdom of the Father.
Two terms to describe Him in His Eternal Personhood, as the the only-begotten of the Father, as the Word/Reason/Wisdom of the Father through Whom all things came to be.
In a similar vein, we speak of the Holy Spirit also as the Paraclete, the Comforter, because He is the Holy Spirit, being the Spirit who proceeds or is "breathed" (aka "spiration") by the Father [and the Son]; He is therefore the Spirit of the Father and the Son. He is also called Paraclete, Comforter, because He is the One sent by the Father and the Son to come and dwell in us and comfort us with the presence and word of Christ, and in and with Christ, we are with Him in the Father and the Father with us.
And so, as the Lord prayed, that we should be one even as He and His Father are one.
"Word" and "Son" are two ways to speak of the same Divine Person, the One who is Eternally of the Father by way of His beginningless and unceasing generation from the Father as God from God. The Co-Eternal and Co-Equal and Consubstantial with the Father: That's Who Jesus is.
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jul 2, 2018
- 18,580
- 11,386
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Thanks, as always, for your thoughtful and complete postings.
It seems that you are holding together aspects that I am attempting to pull apart. (for examination purposes only)
I am a Trinitarian, but am considering how this "pre-incarnate" aspect may have worked on a more practical level.
The bit that I quoted above from your post is what I am considering.
My premise is that the pre-incarnate Logos of the Father became in flesh the incarnate Son known to us as Jesus.
But you want to recognize the Son as pre-incarnate, it seems.
Question: What is the point/purpose of the Word, the Logos, the reason of the Father, prior to the need for the Son incarnate?
And especially as it relates to that which was before the creation of this physical universe.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
