Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

[ViaCrucis]

CryptoLutheran
Could you please comment on my comment regarding Jesus, THE WORD, having simply spoken the world into being.
In Gen.1 , Let there be.... Let there be...

I've heard some commentators put it as Jesus, in a sense, is the "Let there be"; and thus He is that "Creative Word" in Genesis ch. 1 by which everything came into existence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grafted In]

So, is that God's way of creating?
He speaks it and it is?
One exception just came to mind is the story of the manner in which He made woman.
Perhaps there are endless exceptions as well.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, is that God's way of creating?
He speaks it and it is?
One exception just came to mind is the story of the manner in which He made woman.
Perhaps there are endless exceptions as well.

I don't think trying to comprehend the precise "way" of God's creative work will get us anywhere beyond speculation (remembering that He has never stopped being Maker of heaven and earth, as after all you and I are also His handiwork). The point being that all things came to be because of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cherishedteddies]

He-Yes

 

[Grafted In]

Yes, the Word of God.

 

[sparow]

The Word became flesh...
It seems we are too quick to conclude that Jesus WAS the Word before He/It became flesh.

Just to be clear, I am a Trinitarian. I am not questioning the Trinity in this topic.
What I want to discuss is the "mechanics", for lack of a better term.

John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a word, the Word
From lego; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

John 1:1-3 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

My take...
In the beginning was... the Word, the reasoning, the motive, the Divine Expression, the intent, the reason. The logos, the logic, the reason, the answer BEFORE the question "Why"?

Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

I suspect I may not be a Trinitarian; the question that I would ask is; the Word is the spokesperson of God; who or what is God? When the word became flesh He was given new names, like God with us. Now He Has a new name again, referred to in Rev 3:12. When Jesus says Father, is He referring to His former state as the word, I believe so

 

[chevyontheriver]

That appears to be a bit of textual juggling to make the doctrine work.

I can't wrap my head around there being a Jesus before creation. Why?

Because there was an eternal Son of the Father eternally but the incarnation happened in time. This Jesus was a new thing. The eternal Son of the Father was from before creation. It’s what the Nicaean creed says.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That appears to be a bit of textual juggling to make the doctrine work.

I can't wrap my head around there being a Jesus before creation. Why?

It could be textual juggling, but usually a good effort to establish that this may be the case is to actually show how the Hermeneutical analysis is done, by which method, and by which theologians and/or Christian hermeneuticists and professors of ancient languages and Greek and Jewish thought you're referencing in support of your thesis.

Just saying "it appears to be" doesn't really explain to the rest of us how you arrived at your current viewpoint and have concilience with higher academic authorities on that same viewpoint. This is why at the university level they require a Ref/Bib page and the actual use of peer-reviewed, and balanced Pro-Con research in the body of one's papers.

Maybe you could provide this for us so we can see more clearly and distinctly your line of reasoning? Otherwise, I have to point out that while it's great to have a lot of questions, even more Socratically styled questions, it ends up sounding like your one step away from cult-ville, and I know that's not what you're shooting for here.

So, help us out here, bro!

 

[Fervent]

Partly this topic is straining to understand things that are necessarily beyond our ability to conceive because we have no point of reference, but there also appears to be some things that are understandable being misunderstood. The Son surely existed before creation and man was created after His image, meaning what it is to truly be human originates in the Son. To somewhat analogize this, imagine we have a sphere and from that sphere we take a cross-sectional plane from it. That plane existed before we took the cross section, exactly as it is, but our taking of the cross-section created a new perspective on it. Jesus' human nature is, in a similar sense, a new perspective on God's nature not an entirely new creation. Of course, this analogy cannot be pressed too far because we are asking about what existence is apart from our experience of it which we of course have no real basis to create conception of.

 

[Saint Steven]

... the question that I would ask is; the Word is the spokesperson of God; who or what is God? When the word became flesh He was given new names, like God with us. Now He Has a new name again, referred to in Rev 3:12. When Jesus says Father, is He referring to His former state as the word, I believe so

Good question.
The point of my topic is that Jesus wasn't Jesus before he became Jesus. If that makes sense, and it should.
However, many believe that Jesus pre-existed before coming as a child. The Bible says that nothing was created without him.
And that he created all things. Which I accept. But I do not accept that the God/man Jesus did it.

My biggest question is why was there a need for Jesus prior to the physical creation?

I believe in the Trinity. But the mechanics of how that works/worked/will work is a question.

Not sure if I answered your question.

I don't think Jesus is referring to his former self when he talks about the Father.

 

[Fervent]

Good question.
The point of my topic is that Jesus wasn't Jesus before he became Jesus. If that makes sense, and it should.
However, many believe that Jesus pre-existed before coming as a child. The Bible says that nothing was created without him.
And that he created all things. Which I accept. But I do not accept that the God/man Jesus did it.

My biggest question is why was there a need for Jesus prior to the physical creation?

I believe in the Trinity. But the mechanics of how that works/worked/will work is a question.

Not sure if I answered your question.

I don't think Jesus is referring to his former self when he talks about the Father.

Was Jesus Christ not the same yesterday, today, and forever?

 

[d taylor]

-​

The designation the Word suggest this Person is the One who communicates divine truth.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

Yes. Plenty of passages where the Son was made manifest in the flesh before the incarnation (before He was born). Here's one that is impossible to deny:

Genesis 18:1 CSB17
“The LORD appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the heat of the day.”

As you know, when LORD appears in all caps, it is YHWH it is speaking about. But the Bible says,

Numbers 23:19 CSB17
“God is not a man, that he might lie,
or a son of man, that he might change his mind.
Does he speak and not act,
or promise and not fulfill?”

But it gets more complicated when we read in the Bible further where it says,

Isaiah 6:1 CSB17
“I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne,”

And,

Daniel 7:13–14 CSB17
“I continued watching in the night visions,
and suddenly one like a son of man
was coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was escorted before him.
He was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
so that those of every people,
nation, and language
should serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and his kingdom is one
that will not be destroyed.”

So the Lord is God, and the Son is God, and the Son is the exact imprint of YHWH as it is written,

Colossians 1:15–20 CSB17
“He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
For everything was created by him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and by him all things hold together.
He is also the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that he might come to have
first place in everything.
For God was pleased to have
all his fullness dwell in him,
and through him to reconcile
everything to himself,
whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace
through his blood, shed on the cross.”

So if we put all the pieces together, then this YHWH who met with Abraham was the Son, Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Because there was an eternal Son of the Father eternally but the incarnation happened in time. This Jesus was a new thing. The eternal Son of the Father was from before creation. It’s what the Nicaean creed says.

Thanks for your informative post.
But what purpose would there be for a Son of the Father before creation?
In fact, what purpose would there be for a Father before creation?

 

[Fervent]

Thanks for your informative post.
But what purpose would there be for a Son of the Father before creation?
In fact, what purpose would there be for a Father before creation?

Since when does utility dictate God's existence? Why does He need a "purpose?"

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks for your informative post.
But what purpose would there be for a Son of the Father before creation?
In fact, what purpose would there be for a Father before creation?

We learn that God is not a monad, a force, a solitary entity. God is at core a family. We are created in this image of God, and so every one of us is born of a family. Earlier someone said we are created in the image of the Son. Not exactly. We are created in the image of God as Trinity, a community of love. That's why it matters that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are from eternity. And how we are, in the image of that Trinity, social and communicative and loving beings. Deus caritas est. It's no mere fact. It's how we too were made to be.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Since when does utility dictate God's existence? Why does He need a "purpose?"

God has no purpose but to be the one who is. It's what God shows of of his character.

 

[Grafted In]

I've heard some commentators put it as Jesus, in a sense, is the "Let there be"; and thus He is that "Creative Word" in Genesis ch. 1 by which everything came into existence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sparow]

Good question.
The point of my topic is that Jesus wasn't Jesus before he became Jesus. If that makes sense, and it should.
However, many believe that Jesus pre-existed before coming as a child. The Bible says that nothing was created without him.
And that he created all things. Which I accept. But I do not accept that the God/man Jesus did it.

My biggest question is why was there a need for Jesus prior to the physical creation?

I believe in the Trinity. But the mechanics of how that works/worked/will work is a question.

Not sure if I answered your question.

I don't think Jesus is referring to his former self when he talks about the Father.

Good question.
The point of my topic is that Jesus wasn't Jesus before he became Jesus. If that makes sense, and it should.
However, many believe that Jesus pre-existed before coming as a child. The Bible says that nothing was created without him.
And that he created all things. Which I accept. But I do not accept that the God/man Jesus did it.

My biggest question is why was there a need for Jesus prior to the physical creation?

I believe in the Trinity. But the mechanics of how that works/worked/will work is a question.

Not sure if I answered your question.

I don't think Jesus is referring to his former self when he talks about the Father.

The covenant of God is wholistic, beginning with Adam and never ending.


I do not know much about the doctrine of the Trinity, only some history. I have read about the Father, the Son and the Sanctified spirit, with out any confusion; A few years back while in deep debate on this forum I was challenged With, “I thought you were a Trinitarian.” So a penny dropped, and I found the doctrine of the Trinity; which is a definition of God which I presume was presume was intended to be a legitimacy for a Roman Court and a Roman religion.


For the Word of God to work there has to be a spiritual realm, a place that humans cannot see or go. But scripture does give us some clues; There was a war in heaven; our condition is the result of what an enemy has done to us; there is the second death and a reprieve for some; there is that great an terrible day of the Lord; there is salvation and eternity; and in the last days all will be known.


There has to be an eternity before Adam and for there to be war there needs to be a population of more than three. For it to make sense to me these last six thousand years have been used to rebuild something that has previously existed (in type), The New Jerusalem; at the same time a judgement akin to the Nuremberg Trials is in progress.


Jesus made two statements: “All authority has been given to me,” and “Only the Father has authority and only I am teacher.”

 

[Sheila Davis]

You referred to him as He/it - I'm curious why call him an it?

In Genesis scripture says God said let us make man in our image - also says man has become as one of us _ that indicates more than one and separate from each other.

Jesus tells us several things about the Father _ 1 the Father is Spirit meaning, He has no physical form _ 2 no man, I repeat no man has seen the Father - that tells us that God who Adam, Eve, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham Jacob, the prophets, any of the matriarchs that talk to and saw God did "not" SEE and most likely did not speak to God our Father but saw and talked to who we now call Jesus. 3 he said the Father and I are one they are separate, but they are of one spirit.
Jesus is the Word of God our Father as it is written John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God - even that separates the two entities.

Revelation 19:13 tells us that his robe was dripped in blood that his name is Word of God

I love to say God our Father spoke himself into a physical form just like the Angels or Spirit forms that can take upon physical forms _ we will never know how while upon the Earth.

Whosoever doesn't believe that Jesus is the creator denies what is written in John chapter 1 as truth.