Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

[Saint Steven]

The Word became flesh...
It seems we are too quick to conclude that Jesus WAS the Word before He/It became flesh.

Just to be clear, I am a Trinitarian. I am not questioning the Trinity in this topic.
What I want to discuss is the "mechanics", for lack of a better term.

John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a word, the Word
From lego; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

John 1:1-3 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

My take...
In the beginning was... the Word, the reasoning, the motive, the Divine Expression, the intent, the reason. The logos, the logic, the reason, the answer BEFORE the question "Why"?

Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Logos is a Person, He's the only-begotten Son of the Father from all eternity.

Jesus is the Logos. That is what is meant by speaking of Jesus as the indivisible God-Man: One Person and Hypostasis, both God and man without confusion or separation.

The Logos united Himself to human nature, becoming man. The Word became flesh. God was conceived in the womb of the Virgin, and was born of her as flesh of her flesh. He is begotten of the Father from all eternity as God from God; He is begotten of the Virgin Mary in these last days as the Child of her womb, He is the Son of Mary, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham, the Son of Man.

God and Man. Fully and completely.

There was never a time He was not. He is God the Son and Word, Eternal and Uncreated.

The Eternal took on time, the Infinite and the finite.
The Impassible suffered.
The Immortal died.

Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Margaret3110]

I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you asking if the Word (Logos in Greek) was the man Jesus Christ, prior to his incarnation?

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for joining the discussion. First up. Kudos.
I have some questions. (obviously) I appreciate your perspective.

The Logos is a Person, He's the only-begotten Son of the Father from all eternity.

The only-begotten Son of the Father --- at the beginning? --- Before the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us?

Jesus is the Logos. That is what is meant by speaking of Jesus as the indivisible God-Man: One Person and Hypostasis, both God and man without confusion or separation.

The Wrod was man from the beginning? Before the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us?

The Logos united Himself to human nature, becoming man. The Word became flesh. God was conceived in the womb of the Virgin, and was born of her as flesh of her flesh. He is begotten of the Father from all eternity as God from God; He is begotten of the Virgin Mary in these last days as the Child of her womb, He is the Son of Mary, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham, the Son of Man.

What was the purpose of the Logos BEFORE he became flesh?

God and Man. Fully and completely.

Fully Man at the beginning?

There was never a time He was not. He is God the Son and Word, Eternal and Uncreated.

The Son was FROM the beginning, but was He AT the beginning? Before He became flesh? (sorry if I sound like a broken record)

The Eternal took on time, the Infinite and the finite.
The Impassible suffered.
The Immortal died.

Can we say that "Jesus" always was?
Or did He proceed from the Word, the logos, the reason, the logic, the answer before the question?

Jesus Christ our Lord.

AMEN

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you asking if the Word (Logos in Greek) was the man Jesus Christ, prior to his incarnation?

Yes, basically.
More than that... what was the Logos? Was the Logos a person, or an idea?
Did the Trinity, as we understand it, exist before Christ?
Who was the "we" at creation?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for joining the discussion. First up. Kudos.
I have some questions. (obviously) I appreciate your perspective.

The only-begotten Son of the Father --- at the beginning? --- Before the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us?

Absolutely. The Son is the Son eternally. In the Nicene Creed we confess that the Son is "begotten of the Father before all ages". Modern translations word this as "eternally begotten of the Father. The technical term here is the Eternal Generation of the Son. The Son is without beginning, unmade, He has always been the Son, only-begotten of the Father, of the Father's own Being.

The Wrod was man from the beginning? Before the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us?

The Word became human in the womb of the Virgin. That's the Incarnation.

What was the purpose of the Logos BEFORE he became flesh?

All things were made by Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16), through Him all things were made (John 1:3), in Him all things are held together (Colossians 1:17).

Fully Man at the beginning?

Fully man from His conception from the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Son was FROM the beginning, but was He AT the beginning? Before He became flesh? (sorry if I sound like a broken record)

In the beginning He was Word and Son, God with God. That Word and Son became flesh of the Virgin when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her (Luke 1:35, John 1:14)

Can we say that "Jesus" always was?
Or did He proceed from the Word, the logos, the reason, the logic, the answer before the question?

AMEN

Jesus is the Logos, and He has always been, always is, and always will be. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Margaret3110]

OK I think I see what you're getting at. I've always understood it to be that the second Person of the Trinity was the Son, but not yet man, before becoming flesh. The Trinity has always been three Persons in relationship with each other, even before anything was created.

Was the Logos a person, or an idea?

Both, I think? Maybe not so much an idea, though, as a principle by which things were created and put in order?

 

[Jonaitis]

Yes, basically.
More than that... what was the Logos? Was the Logos a person, or an idea?
Did the Trinity, as we understand it, exist before Christ?
Who was the "we" at creation?

Essentially, you are asking about the economic function/distinction of the Trinity prior to creation.

There is a lot of discussion on this, but it is speculative at best imo.

The Logos (Son of God) is representation. It is divine thought as the reflection of the True.
The Rhema (Spirit of God) is manifestation. It is divine utterance as the actuality of divine thought.

It sounds Neo-Platonic, doesn't it? We do not realize the huge contribution of Greek thought to Christian theism.

What, then, is the Father? He is the absolute. It is divinity itself as something ineffable that must be explained by the Logos, whose will and action is manifested through the Logos by way of the Rhema.

I suppose I am sounding more like a philosopher than a theologian, but that's where it takes you...

 

[ViaCrucis]

Both, I think? Maybe not so much an idea, though, as a principle by which things were created and put in order?

That is, essentially the Greek philosophical idea. The radical claim in the prologue of the Gospel of John is that Logos is, indeed, a Person. And that Person is none other than Jesus Christ.

The Logos isn't an abstraction, He is the One who suffered and died under Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead. That was a profoundly radical and controversial claim Christians made, and it would have been shocking and offensive to the philosophers of the day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dqhall]

Psalm 110
“Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

This passage was frequently quoted as evidence for Jesus being with God before he was born in the flesh.

Jesus is translated from the Hebrew Yahoshua, meaning Yahweh is salvation. Hebrew scribes did not write vowels until centuries after Jesus was born. We may have lost some of the pronunciations of Hebrew words through the years. I have heard modern Hebrew speaking Christians call Jesus Yeshua. Jesus is from the Greek Iesous, meaning God is salvation. In English the J was once pronounced with an I sound, the original Iesous pronunciation has been lost in transmission.

 

[Saint Steven]

OK I think I see what you're getting at. I've always understood it to be that the second Person of the Trinity was the Son, but not yet man, before becoming flesh. The Trinity has always been three Persons in relationship with each other, even before anything was created.

Both, I think? Maybe not so much an idea, though, as a principle by which things were created and put in order?

Seems to me that Jesus was the solution to a nonexistent problem before creation.
There was no reason (logos) before sin entered the world.
Was Jesus the answer before the question?

A similar question could be asked about the Holy Spirit I suppose.
However, the Bible says the Spirit was there at creation, hovering over the waters, as it were.
And very present in the Prophets and others.
Supposed Christophany in the OT as well.

 

[Margaret3110]

That is, essentially the Greek philosophical idea. The radical claim in the prologue of the Gospel of John is that Logos is, indeed, a Person. And that Person is none other than Jesus Christ.

The Logos isn't an abstraction, He is the One who suffered and died under Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead. That was a profoundly radical and controversial claim Christians made, and it would have been shocking and offensive to the philosophers of the day.

-CryptoLutheran

That is basically what I was trying to say by saying it's both.

 

[Margaret3110]

There was no reason (logos) before sin entered the world.

Source?

 

[Saint Steven]

The radical claim in the prologue of the Gospel of John is that Logos is, indeed, a Person. And that Person is none other than Jesus Christ.

The Logos isn't an abstraction, He is the One who suffered and died under Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead.

Is that supported in the scripture?
The Word was in the beginning. The Word BECAME flesh.
Jesus suffered and died under Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead.
How can we claim that was the Logos which was FROM the beginning?

 

[Saint Steven]

Source?

Did you read the OP ? (opening post) Post #1 ?
Perhaps I should have written "before creation"?
There was no reason (logos) before creation. Instead of "before sin entered the world." ???

John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a word, the Word
From lego; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

John 1:1-3 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

My take...
In the beginning was... the Word, the reasoning, the motive, the Divine Expression, the intent, the reason. The logos, the logic, the reason, the answer BEFORE the question "Why"?

Was "the Word" Jesus before He/It became flesh?

 

[Lost Witness]

- Before the Word BECAME flesh

the Spirit came before the Flesh.
Pretty easy concept.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Psalm 110
“Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

This passage was frequently quoted as evidence for Jesus being with God before he was born in the flesh.

Jesus is translated from the Hebrew Yahoshua, meaning Yahweh is salvation. Hebrew scribes did not write vowels until centuries after Jesus was born. We may have lost some of the pronunciations of Hebrew words through the years. I have heard modern Hebrew speaking Christians call Jesus Yeshua. Jesus is from the Greek Iesous, meaning God is salvation. In English the J was once pronounced with an I sound, the original Iesous pronunciation has been lost in transmission.

Just a couple nitpicks:

1) The pronunciation of יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎‎ is Yehoshua, the Yod has a shva (the two vertical dots) indicating that the vowel is closer to /ə/ (like in men or menorah); though it can also be a null vowel /Ø/, indicating a reduced or absent vowel sound. In any event, it results in a the pronunciation of the name as beginning with Yeho, rather than Yaho.

2) The name which Mary and Joseph would have given Him, and used in the family home in Nazareth, wouldn't have been יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎‎, but the Aramaic ישוע, the exact pronunciation of which being a rather complicated subject. Firstly, the specific variety of Aramaic spoken by Jews in the region of Palestine at the time is known as Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, a form of Western Aramaic. To add complexity to that, the Holy Family, Galileans, would have spoken it with a uniquely Galilean dialect. Galileans were noteworthy for having a very peculiar dialect, it's why Aramaic speakers in Judea could immediately tell if someone was from Galilee just by hearing them speak (see Matthew 26:73 for a biblical witness). As such there are a few proposed reconstructions for how Jesus' name was pronounced as spoken by Mary, Joseph, and others from Nazareth, it could have possibly been Yeshu', with the final Ayin reduced to a glottal breath or it could have been pronounced Yeshua with the Ayin still pronounced as in the traditional Hebrew pronunciation, or it could have been Yesho. Surviving Aramaic dialects spoken by Christians in the Middle East have retained the pronunciations of Yeshuu (Western) and Isho (Eastern), perhaps giving us a glimpse into the original pronunciation as having either been Yeshu' or Yesho.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Saint Steven]

Essentially, you are asking about the economic function/distinction of the Trinity prior to creation.

There is a lot of discussion on this, but it is speculative at best imo.

Yes.
Speculative ultimately, but I was noticing recently that the scripture (John 1) doesn't fully support the common dogma on the Word.

What, then, is the Father? He is the absolute. It is divinity itself as something ineffable that must be explained by the Logos, whose will and action is manifested through the Logos by way of the Rhema.

That's a valid question from my perspective.
It seems that all three members of the Trinity are understood to meet specific, yet overlapping, human needs.

 

[Saint Steven]

the Spirit came before the Flesh.
Pretty easy concept.

More demeaning comments? Thanks.

 

[Jonaitis]

It seems that all three members of the Trinity are understood to meet specific, yet overlapping, human needs.

Aha, I think you are getting quite close to the truth, my friend. If you ponder further, you will begin to sound like a madman.