Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Pfaffenhofen]

You have no idea what you're talking about. We don't pray to things, we pray to God.

Regarding the picture of the Pope, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Modern popes, like their early Christian predecessors, had no desire to be Pope. They are chosen by the College of Cardinals with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's not something you run for and get elected, every time that's ever been done, someone else was elected. And while he is sovereign of the Vatican State, it's not him who chooses to be paraded like that.

Protestant here only talk by the appearance of things, by external signs, cannot see the inside of things...Surprising...

 

[Albion]

My Mother is dead as well as my Father. So, you forbid me to talk to them.

I said it's wrong to worship them. Try to keep up with the discussion.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

I'd really love to hear your version of the Spanish Inquisiton. Amantiado, anyone? How many millions would you say the Spanish Inqusition killed?

Millions? Where did you get there?
Would not be billions?

 

[Root of Jesse]

why would you stay connected to a vine you yourself have admitted they have all partaken in the death and murder of others under the banner of Christ. I could only wonder what a sect or denomination has to do before you would leave, roots are so important to a plant, Its somtimes better to start with a new seed then try to nurse an old plant back to health that has produced rotten fruit.

The foundation is Christ, If what has been built in the early stages of constuction is weak and found crumbling, why would you want to build on top of such a structure.

biblically Its always better to start again, the foundation is Rock solid, what is built on this Rock is crucial for its ability to stand in the storms to come

Because the foundation (Christ) is found in the Church he instituted-the Catholic Church. What men have done is of no consequence. The Church is Holy because Christ is Holy. Period.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I fail to see how your examples explain bowing to the Pope? men bowed to our apostles and they told them to get up because they are men just like them. Is the Pope not a man just like the apostles? Your examples showing people bowing for different reasons to different people and animals suggest if it's ok for them, it's ok for the Pope. The Pope lives like a Egyptian King, can you deny that? Peter lived a very humble simple life, so did the other apostles. You believe the Pope is the continuation of the apostle authority, yet he doesn't act like a apostle in any shape or form. he acts more like a Egyptian King of Royalty. People bowing to him, kissing his hands, all a form of worship, even if not equal to the worship of God is still a form of idolization the apostles made a strict point to speak against. All your Popes seemed to love and lavish this idolization and form of worship they receive. I see no evidence otherwise. Whats really odd is none of that seems to bother any Catholics. Truly odd.

It explains that bowing does not equal worshipping. We don't worship the Pope, the Pope does not demand it. It's that simple. It's truly odd that you see human gestures as acts of worship. They are, only when meant that way. And your eye cannot tell what I mean if I do bow toward something or someone. Your eye cannot see my heart.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is possible to put one's head down and not be worshipping the Pope, that's true, but when one does it before the Pope or a statue of someone dead or engages in various other acts of worship, it is fair to ask if this is a practice that should be engaged in. Most of your pictures had nothing to do with prayer or religion or anything of the sort, so they are not easily confused with worship.

Bowing to the pope or bishop is not an act of worship. It's an act of respect.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Then how is it ok for the followers to want to put the Pope on a pedestal like this?

Where do you want to put him? in a hole? In the underground?
You do not understand because you do not see the dimension of the Catholic Church. There are 2 000 bishops, 1 million priests as many or more nuns and 1 billion faithful.

Do you think he is in such a High pedestal compared with the Queen of England ? He moves on with little security even after the attempt on John Paul II. He works 15 hours a day. His room is simple. He did not marry and devotes His life to the Church.

Can you tell me what are the characteristics of the pedestal, that i do not see?

 

[Root of Jesse]

She wore a distinctive habit that, I believe, she herself designed for her religious order of sisters. And she appeared before the United Nations assembly as well as other, similar organizations. ????

Your point being...???

Mother received many honors from people who wished to honor her, but she didn't seek those honors. In fact, once when the Russians wanted to attract her to build a convent there, they bestowed an honor on her, and asked her to speak before a group. She went, reluctantly, and began to speak, but she realized that the translator was not directly translating her speech, but propaganda. She stopped her speech, went over to the translator, and demanded that he translate properly or she would get up and leave. She went back to the podium and continued to speak.

Mother Theresa did not know Russian.

 

[Albion]

I was not making a blanket statement of all pastors of all Protestant denominations. I agree there are those, such as the televangelists and the like (including pastors of the mega-churches), that do not exemplify the servant-leader role. However, there are plenty pastors in the smaller churches that do.

I know, and you are correct. I was cautioning, I suppose, against generalizations, and I actually had smaller churches in mind in which the pastor is a major domo with embarrassingly exaggerated status. But again, you are correct that there are many, many hard-working and self-sacrificing pastors of small congregations who do wonderful work while being completely unpretentious.

 

[Root of Jesse]

FWIW, I can't quite buy this analysis of the servant pastor who doesn't wear any vestments because he doesn't want to put on any false pride, etc.

Not when these are the folks who want to be called "Apostle," "Prophet" or "Doctor," wear $600 suits during worship services, and are treated to special--but well-publicized--testimonial dinners for themselves and the "First Lady" every couple of months. None of the mainline churches engages in that kind of promotion, even if their clergy do wear a gown on Sunday morning.

Vestments are worn to put down the person inside them, in order that the congregation would see Christ.

 

[Albion]

Vestments are worn to put down the person inside them, in order that the congregation would see Christ.

Let's just go with the first part of that sentence and leave the superstition out of it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

oh my.

I can't wait for your next history lesson. "the Holocaust was not so bad. A few people did some things wrong. But have you seen any fraternity initiations? They are exactly the same thing."

On second thought, once is enough.

Are you blaming the Holocaust on Catholics? Tell me why the Spanish Inquisition, as an entity, was such a bad idea. Provide scholarly proof, please? Note: I am not saying that individuals involved in the Inquisition didn't do bad things. Hideous things. Some did. Not as many as you think. But just like I think the 9th Circuit Court is wrong much of the time, I don't fault the institution of the court system.

But apparently, you do. Please explain.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Then how is it ok for the followers to want to put the Pope on a pedestal like this?

How is it ok for players to parade their coach on their shoulders like that? It's not an act of worship.

 

[athenken]

Are you blaming the Holocaust on Catholics? Tell me why the Spanish Inquisition, as an entity, was such a bad idea. Provide scholarly proof, please? Note: I am not saying that individuals involved in the Inquisition didn't do bad things. Hideous things. Some did. Not as many as you think. But just like I think the 9th Circuit Court is wrong much of the time, I don't fault the institution of the court system.

But apparently, you do. Please explain.

First of all, and yes I am making an assumption here but, he is not saying Catholics are responsible for the Holocaust, he was making an example of how something can be erroneously downplayed.

As for the Spanish Inquisition I will say that any case where the church forces people to convert to Christianity upon pain of death and/or torture is asbolutely wrong. Nowhere in the bible is there an example of the church being required forcibly convert people.

 

[athenken]

How is it ok for players to parade their coach on their shoulders like that? It's not an act of worship.

Thanks for remaining within the same context.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Let's just go with the first part of that sentence and leave the superstition out of it.

Might be superstition to you, but that's the purpose of vestments.

 

[Albion]

Might be superstition to you, but that's the purpose of vestments.

Uh, no. It's not.

 

[athenken]

Might be superstition to you, but that's the purpose of vestments.

Thank you for confirming how irrelevant they are.

Let me ask you this: would you ever catch Jesus wearing vestments? Would you ever catch any of his desciples wearing vestments?

I think not.

 

[Root of Jesse]

First of all, and yes I am making an assumption here but, he is not saying Catholics are responsible for the Holocaust, he was making an example of how something can be erroneously downplayed.

As for the Spanish Inquisition I will say that any case where the church forces people to convert to Christianity upon pain of death and/or torture is asbolutely wrong. Nowhere in the bible is there an example of the church being required forcibly convert people.

That's not what the Inquisition was about. In a nutshell, the Spanish Inquisition was actually a mid-fifteenth century adoption of inquisition courts for a very specific political purpose. It was a government-controlled inquisition aimed primarily at faithful Catholics of Jewish ancestry. The image of a Spanish Inquisition burnings hundreds of thousands of Protestant heretics has no basis in fact— there were few if any Protestants in Spain.
Though first established with papal approval, the Spanish Inquisition quickly came to be dominated by the Spanish monarchy—not the Church. It had strong and ugly racial overtones as it was aimed at those of Jewish and, later, Muslim ancestry. While it certainly was a force that kept Protestant thought out of Spain in the Reformation and post-Reformation era, the number of those actually prosecuted for such theological dissent was very small.
The last major outburst of the inquisition in Spain was again aimed at Jewish converts in the 1720s. The Spanish Inquisition was formally ended by the monarchy in 1834, though it had effectively ended years earlier.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Thanks for remaining within the same context.

Let's see....it's outside of a church. It's a leader of an entity. He's paraded on shoulders. It's relevant, in that neither is a form of worship, and both are forms of pride in a leader.