Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

ebia · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
I would never dare to say of a Protestant Brother of mine what he was worshiping nothing but God and Jesus Christ.

I only explain that somebody think that a Catholic worships anything but God by hate to the Catholics. Nothing but that.

Moreover, even of Jews and Muslims, I would not dare to say, looking to a picture or a photo, that they would be adoring a camel or a stone, or an Imam or whatever. I KNOW and I have sufficient culture to KNOW that they are adamant on the idea of One God.

Nevertheless, people are free to hate Catholics...

Fear, ignorance and hate breed off each other. That's why so many parts of the world have such chronic violence.

Catholics aren't immune to it either, though Vatican II has helped a lot.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 12, 2012

Obama and the Emperor

Types of Bowing with names in Japan

Dancers

New England Puritan Man Bowing His Head

Judo

Horse: no comment

Bird's courtship

no comment

Protestant: if they were Catholics ! We would have hell and fire!

Again: Protestants

Japan

No comment

Obama

Players

Amanda Melby, president of the Protestant Women of the Chapel on Fort McPherson, kneels in prayer May 7 during the 58th annual observation of the National Day of Prayer.

George Washington

Get up! She is one like you !!!

I did my homework.

iLogos · Feb 12, 2012

Ahh so the apostles didn't know what they were talking about! Man can and should bow to other men and animals! Gotcha, thanks for providing the Catholic answer for us!

Rick Otto · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
Bowing before the Pope ?

ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah! ah! ah!ah! ah!

This is the best of the year and we are still in February....
I do not even answer this sentence...Someone who speaks this way must know it all...So, I am not going to tell the meaning of this part of the ceremony.
Nevertheless, my respect for my Protestant Brothers would not dare to suspect that would worship nothing but God and His Son Jesus Christ. No matter what their attitudes and ceremonies may puzzle me, I would not dare to think that their God would be anything but the Christian God...

Of course, otherwise they would just be deceived & deceivers. Nobody would do that on purpose, right?

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 12, 2012

iLogos said:
Ahh so the apostles didn't know what they were talking about! Man can and should bow to other men and animals! Gotcha, thanks for providing the Catholic answer for us!

I did not know all the people in the photos, even Obama, were Catholics...Learning a lot from Logos....

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 12, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Of course, otherwise they would just be deceived & deceivers. Nobody would do that on purpose, right?

Sorry. I could not follow the reasoning.

iLogos · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
I did not know all the people in the photos, even Obama, were Catholics...Learning a lot from Logos....

I'm sorry, I thought you were suggesting that if others do it it must be ok.

mantelofaprophet · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
So, if an ancestor of mine from the 16th century was a murderer, I am a murderer too?

do you follow the same branch where the root has been evil

mantelofaprophet · Feb 12, 2012

whitetiger1 said:
So how's that work for you because every group has done that at one time or another. Just because someone belongs to a Christian group be it Anglican, Catholic, Presbyterian etc does not mean we are responsible for what those ancestors did.

why would you stay connected to a vine you yourself have admitted they have all partaken in the death and murder of others under the banner of Christ. I could only wonder what a sect or denomination has to do before you would leave, roots are so important to a plant, Its somtimes better to start with a new seed then try to nurse an old plant back to health that has produced rotten fruit.

The foundation is Christ, If what has been built in the early stages of constuction is weak and found crumbling, why would you want to build on top of such a structure.

biblically Its always better to start again, the foundation is Rock solid, what is built on this Rock is crucial for its ability to stand in the storms to come

mantelofaprophet · Feb 12, 2012

whitetiger1 said:
So how's that work for you because every group has done that at one time or another. Just because someone belongs to a Christian group be it Anglican, Catholic, Presbyterian etc does not mean we are responsible for what those ancestors did.

from scripture we see Jesus comparing the Jews of His day to be exactly like their ancestors, killing the prophets, committing the same sins (why this happens?) their simply from the same vine

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 12, 2012

iLogos said:
I'm sorry, I thought you were suggesting that if others do it it must be ok.

No. Somebody was saying that we, Catholics, bow before the Pope because we worship Him.
I was giving plenty of resources about bowing and not to the Pope.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 12, 2012

mantelofaprophet said:
do you follow the same branch where the root has been evil

Jesus Christ did not think that way. He told so when asked about a handicapped person.

Sophrosyne · Feb 12, 2012

what is up on flooding the thread with a huge 1600 pixel picture?

iLogos · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
No. Somebody was saying that we, Catholics, bow before the Pope because we worship Him.
I was giving plenty of resources about bowing and not to the Pope.

I fail to see how your examples explain bowing to the Pope? men bowed to our apostles and they told them to get up because they are men just like them. Is the Pope not a man just like the apostles? Your examples showing people bowing for different reasons to different people and animals suggest if it's ok for them, it's ok for the Pope. The Pope lives like a Egyptian King, can you deny that? Peter lived a very humble simple life, so did the other apostles. You believe the Pope is the continuation of the apostle authority, yet he doesn't act like a apostle in any shape or form. he acts more like a Egyptian King of Royalty. People bowing to him, kissing his hands, all a form of worship, even if not equal to the worship of God is still a form of idolization the apostles made a strict point to speak against. All your Popes seemed to love and lavish this idolization and form of worship they receive. I see no evidence otherwise. Whats really odd is none of that seems to bother any Catholics. Truly odd.

Albion · Feb 12, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
No. Somebody was saying that we, Catholics, bow before the Pope because we worship Him.
I was giving plenty of resources about bowing and not to the Pope.

It is possible to put one's head down and not be worshipping the Pope, that's true, but when one does it before the Pope or a statue of someone dead or engages in various other acts of worship, it is fair to ask if this is a practice that should be engaged in. Most of your pictures had nothing to do with prayer or religion or anything of the sort, so they are not easily confused with worship.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 13, 2012

Albion said:
It is possible to put one's head down and not be worshipping the Pope, that's true, but when one does it before the Pope or a statue of someone dead or engages in various other acts of worship, it is fair to ask if this is a practice that should be engaged in. Most of your pictures had nothing to do with prayer or religion or anything of the sort, so they are not easily confused with worship.

So, Obama bowing before the Emperor is not worship (though it raised some eyebrows in the USA, but it seems not to you) and bowing before the Pope is worship !?!?
If your idea is not biased I do not know what biased means.
When missionaries arrived in China, they saw Chinese making kok Kung or bowing before the tomb of ancestors. Some Catholic missionaries reported To Rome who forbade the Catholic Chinese to do the dead rites. As a result, Christians were kicked out of China for 2 centuries. You know, even the Catholic Church made the same mistake as you make: demanding that the Chinese rites be considered worship when they were not.
Nowadays, the Chinese Rites are allowed but meanwhile the Church lost 2 centuries.
Anyhow, what I find funny is what happened in China. I say that when I kneel before the image (not statue !!!) of the Holy Mary I am not worshiping her. But you, who knows myself and my soul better than I know myself, you, who have never seen me face to face, you say that I am wrong. I say I am not worshiping and you say that you know better than I, you say that I am worshiping.

Boy, you must have supernatural powers...

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 13, 2012

iLogos said:
I fail to see how your examples explain bowing to the Pope? men bowed to our apostles and they told them to get up because they are men just like them. Is the Pope not a man just like the apostles? Your examples showing people bowing for different reasons to different people and animals suggest if it's ok for them, it's ok for the Pope. The Pope lives like a Egyptian King, can you deny that? Peter lived a very humble simple life, so did the other apostles. You believe the Pope is the continuation of the apostle authority, yet he doesn't act like a apostle in any shape or form. he acts more like a Egyptian King of Royalty. People bowing to him, kissing his hands, all a form of worship, even if not equal to the worship of God is still a form of idolization the apostles made a strict point to speak against. All your Popes seemed to love and lavish this idolization and form of worship they receive. I see no evidence otherwise. Whats really odd is none of that seems to bother any Catholics. Truly odd.

Yes, the Pope lives a simple life. Not married, his room is simple. He works much more for the Church than the Head of the Church of England. He owns nothing. He has no possessions. The Head of the Church of England seems to be one of the richest persons in the World.

Millions of people want to see the Pope. Should He kick them out? See every Sunday St Peter Square, it is crowded with people who want to see him. They kiss his hand not to kiss his face as in many civilizations do (do you want me to quote). Obama bowed before the Emperor of Japan, for much less. I bow before him because I like to bow before him. Now you say it is worship. I say I am nor worshiping because I only worship God and He is not God. But you insist that I am worshiping the Pope because you are a smart guy who knows more about what I think than me, myself. What can I do?

You are ignorant of Papacy. Today, no Cardinal wants to be a Pope. If he enters with this idea, it is forbidden to elect him. You conclude that because He is smiling. What should He do? Spitting on the crowd?

The Pope lives like a Egyptian King,

Sorry, you do not know the Pope and you do not know how Egyptian Pharaohs (not Kings !!!!) lived.

Yes, the Pope is someone like the apostles. The apostles asked not to be considered gods. You seem to memorize the Bible without understanding. In those days, it was easy for a man to be considered god as the greek religion had 10 thousand gods, so one god more, one god less... So, people are transforming the apostles in gods.

That is not the same meaning today. You should study more history and know the context. It is not saying: "Christ always on foot, so the Pope must go from Rome to Sweden by foot too, he cannot enter a plain!""

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 13, 2012

Sophrosyne said:
what is up on flooding the thread with a huge 1600 pixel picture?

That is horrible.
But I cannot discover otherwise. You know, you must put a link to someone else's site and accept the definition of the other picture.
If you can find a way to reduce the picture, I would be most grateful..

ebia · Feb 13, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
The Head of the Church of England seems to be one of the richest persons in the World.

where on earth did you get that idea? Oh you mean the queen.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 13, 2012

ebia said:
where on earth did you get that idea? Oh you mean the queen.

Yes, the Queen. But I do not envy Her wealth. Should She be ten time richer, let it be ... I do not envy rich people. Look at my dearest Whitney Houston, peace to her Soul...
Simply, the Pope is not rich. He does not have personal wealth. His riches are the same as when He was Cardinal Ratzinger. And there are things that He uses and that are God's like the Cathedral of St. Peter.
Moreover, many people give him things. All the big automakers, like Audi, BMW and Mercedes want to give him a Popemobile...you know why...

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

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