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Was the Pre-Nicene Church Orthodox?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by RevelationTestament, May 9, 2013.

  1. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    That is what Jews presently believe.
    If Elohim is the plural form of Eloah, what is the plural of El? What is the difference?
    If you don't have a transliterated Bible may I suggest getting a Restored Name KJV? One can be had at TheWord.net along with some very good Bible software. Search for the usage of Eloah.
    Now let us assume God knows how to speak Hebrew. Why does He occasionally use Eloah, and constantly use Elohim starting with Genesis 1 where Elohim makes the world and man?
    Our word God comes from a Greek/Roman background - not Hebrew.
    Do you believe Jesus is JHWH?
    Do you believe Heavenly Father is JHWH? See Deut 18:17-19.
    Do you believe the Father created the world through the Son?
    So Elohim(pl) literally created the world as Genesis says.
    All throughout the KJV we find LORD God, which the RNKJV shows is YHWH Elohim in the Hebrew, a plural form - not YHWH Eloah, and not YHWH El. Why? Jesus said the Jews He spoke with were Elohim quoting Ps 82, and emphasized the law cannot be broken.
    Now you pointed out that elohim is sometimes used in reference to idolic gods. Idols were made of stone or perhaps molded stone called metal which God would refer to as your elohim/gods to the Hebrews. Instead of revering the Rock of their salvation, Eloah, they being elohim, worshipped elohim, rock statues that neither see, nor hear, nor walk. Now I ask, were they YHWH? The Jews do not know what JHWH means. They have confounded the name of God. Letter by letter JHWH means Behold the nail, behold the hand. They were not the Word, nor the law - they were not YHWH. Note how He speaks to them: I am the Lord your God - I am the Word of your family of Stone, as best I can translate it - it truly essentially means this - but His name YHWH, got lost as a title in the KJV, and confounded with adonai, so that where JHWH would be, LORD appears in the KJV rather than Lord or adonai. Where He repeatedly says I am the LORD, it could read I am the WORD/Law/Way/Life - that is the meaning of His name, which name they share as one. I totally did not get that from the English KJV because all the names and titles are consolidated into Lord and God/s. Further, El Shaddai becomes God Almighty in the Septuagint, the Father, in the creeds, when this is confounded as well. El Shaddai means more like God who weans you from the breast(shad), and is a reference to Christ, See Gen 49:25 and John 8, rather than the Father, El Elyon or Most High God. El Gibbor means Mighty/Almighty God. Thus, basically all the creeds are upside down or backwards from the very start if they were to get translated back into Hebrew as the Father Almighty being El Shaddai.

    Ezek 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
    Ezek 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
    Ezek 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
    Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Yep. Like confessionals and last rites, Trinity was created by church fathers along the way. People jumped on the bandwagon or they didn't. Same as today. Rome had the power, thus their views prevailed (for many centuries).
     
  3. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Rome became the church of Europe for many centuries while the Eastern Orthodox Church suffered under the weight of muslim incursions. If the Roman empire was the amalgamated beast of Revelation thru its predecessors, Babylon, Persia, and Greece, what would be its 10 horns that come to share power with the beast?
     
  4. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    The first beast of Revelation 13 has ten horns with ten crowns which represent the 10 divisions of the Roman Empire at the time it was broken up and the bishop of Rome gained political power in 538 A.D. The 10 Teutonic tribes/divisions which sacked Rome and divided the Empire are: the Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards (Lombardy), Franks (France), Suevi/Alamanni, Gepidae, Saxons (although Saxony was not in the Roman Empire but the Holy Roman Empire), Burgundians (Bergundy), Ostrogoths, and the Heruli who were all prophesied in Daniel 7:8 (the 10 horned beast with iron teeth which subdued/ encompassed the lion, bear and leopard). This beast also has seven heads, but ten crowns. Revelation 13: 1. "...And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat and great authority." Revelation 13:2. This beast is like unto the dragon, and takes his shape and power from the dragon.
     
  5. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    How did the Bishop of Rome gain political power in 538AD? Can you explain?

    Only three of the tribes mentioned on your list actually sacked Rome (the Visigoths, Vandals, and the Ostrogoths under Totila), and the Roman Empire was divided up into more than just 10 divisions. What is your source for this 10 division idea?

    NumberOneSon
     
  6. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    I can't say there was one specific event by which he gained power. He became the Pontifex Maximus, and then at this time got possession of Rome & the nod from the eastern emperor because they were working together to get rid of the arian invaders. The previous emperor was arian. At this time he was recognized by the eastern empire as having authority over the arians, and was in action essentially given a duchy over the churches.

    You will please forgive the constrictions of language. I was speaking in generalities as the arians sacked Rome and divided the Empire. You say there were more than 10? By all means please elucidate. I believe one or two others raided but they didn't stay and divide up the empire with the 10 I mention. You will note that with the cooperation of the bishop of Rome 3 of these were "plucked up by the roots", see Daniel 7:8 - the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths, which you will note disappeared from history. The Catholic priests would do things like open up city gates.

    BTW that picture is totally cute - is he yours?
     
  7. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Revelations isn't Gospel, IMO.
     
  8. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    "Man stands in his own shadow and wonders why it is dark"--anonymous
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    There IS no shadow in the light.
     
  10. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Any light man has is a mere reflection of the light of Christ.
     
  11. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    dbl post maybe I'll think of something brilliant to say LOL
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Learn what "light" is, and my post makes sense. Think spiritual, not physical (light).

    It is from water and fire that the soul and the spirit came into being. It is from water and fire and light that the son of the bridal chamber (came into being). The fire is the chrism, the light is the fire. I am not referring to that fire which has no form, but to the other fire whose form is white, which is bright and beautiful, and which gives beauty. -Philip
     
  13. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi RT. I don’t believe there is any historical evidence showing that the Bishop of Rome assumed the Pontifex Maximus title in 538AD, nor is there any reason to believe he took possession of Rome in that year. A decade later the Ostrogoths took possession of Rome again in 549AD. In 538AD, Emperor Justinian was the one in possession of Rome, and that happened in 536AD when General Belisarius took the city.

    The previous emperor was Justin, who was Catholic. There were only two Arian Eastern emperors in the empire’s history, and the last one (Emperor Valens) died 160 years before 538AD.

    The Bishop of Rome was recognized by the emperor as being the head of the church before 538AD.

    Ok, no problem.

    Sure. The Angles, Jutes, Rugians, and Alans were all Tuetonic tribes that carved kingdoms out of the Roman Empire as it began to crumble. There were also native barbarian tribes like the Basques, Welsh, and Britons with their own kingdoms as well. The Moors created a kingdom out of the Southwestern end of the Roman Empire in North Africa toward the end of the 5th Century.

    So there were more than 10 Teutonic tribes that divided the Western Empire, and there were more than 10 divisions.

    I know of no contemporary evidence suggesting the Bishop of Rome played any role in plucking up the Heruli, Vandal, or Ostrogothic kingdoms. The historian Procopius wrote of how Pope Silverius and the Roman leaders opened the city’s gates to the Byzantine army in 536AD, but that was the extent of papal involvement. Do you know of any other evidence?

    No, I just thought it was a cute pic, lol.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  14. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    :thumbsup:
    Acts 17:29-30
    29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
    30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
     
  15. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Was Rome the "wild beast" that is spoken of at Revelation 13 ? No. The Roman Empire is seen at Daniel 7, being spoken of as "a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth...devouring and crushing.....different from all other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.....look ! another horn, a small one, came up among them....And look ! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly."(Dan 7:7, 8)

    The Roman Empire was a viable yet fragmenting government until 476 C.E., when Rome fell to the Germanic warlord Odoacer (who received his training in the Roman army). However, from its demise came forth several other governments ("ten horns" or all the kingdoms that grew from the Roman Empire), but one especially is noted as "a small horn."

    History shows that, although the Roman Empire enjoyed an extension of life in the form of the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic nation, it eventually gave way to the rising power of its onetime imperial subject, Britain.

    Because of their close affinity and general unity of action, Britain (a former outpost of the Roman Empire and in which some 10,000 objects were found in Roman London in April 2013) and the United States today are often referred to as the Anglo-American World Power, the present dominant power in world history that formed a special partnership during World War I and became the "small horn" of Daniel 7. The Roman Empire was the sixth "king" seen at Revelation 17:9, 10, with the seventh "king" becoming the now existing Anglo-American dual world power.

    The "wild beast" of Revelation shows itself as a composite "beast", composed of features of all four of the "beasts" (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) at Daniel 7. It is a creation of "the dragon", Satan the Devil, "ascending out of the sea" or restless masses of mankind always longing for a change of government, dividing itself now into some 196 different nations around the earth.(Rev 13:1) Isaiah 57:20 says that "the wicked are like the restless sea that cannot calm down, and its waters keep tossing up seaweed and mire."

    The "wild beast" at Revelation 13:1 symbolizes all the political governments that have existed combined under one "umbrella", with nationalism as the motivating factor, beginning with Nimrod not long after the global flood.(Gen 10:8-12)

    In our time period, the "ten horns" (Rev 17:12, the number ten representing completeness, such as the "ten commandments" or "ten plagues") are all the political governments alive during "the Lord's day" that began with Jesus installation as king of God's kingdom in 1914.(Rev 1:10)

    At the time of John receiving the Revelation, the "ten horns" pointed forward to "ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings (or come into existence as nations) for one hour (during the these "last days", a very short period of time compared with the "wild beast" life of several thousand years) with the wild beast."(Rev 17:12)

    It is at the behest of another "beast" that Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, is made "devastated and naked....completely burn(ing) her with fire."(Rev 17:16) With the backing of the "ten horns", which thinks that destroying her is of its own accord, never realizing that "God put into their hearts to carry out his one thought"(Rev 17:17), the "scarlet-colored wild beast" or United Nations (Rev 17:3), will attempt to see to it that all religions, including the "one faith" (Eph 4:5) that is pleasing to God, is brought to an end. It will succeed with regard all the false religions that comprise Babylon the Great.

    However, with the attack on God's people (Eze 38:8, 9), this will bring on Armageddon, "the war of the great day of God the Almighty" against the "kings of the entire inhabited earth."(Rev 16:14, 16)

    Then, what Jesus said will come true: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days (after the destruction of Babylon the Great), the sun will be (symbolically) darkened, and the moon will (symbolically) not give its light, and the stars will (symbolically) fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."(Matt 24:29, 30; see also Rev 1:7)

    This will signal the complete demise of "the wild beast" and its "image", whereby the apostle John "saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the (white) horse (Jesus Christ) and against his (angelic) army. And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet (the Anglo-American dual world power whose word is seen as prophetic among the world) that performed in front of it (the wild beast) the signs with which he (the Anglo-American dual world power) misled those who received the mark of the wild beast (those who support each nation's sovereignty) and those who worship its image (that began as the League of Nations on January 16, 1920 and finishes as the United Nations). While still alive (still functioning effectively though having troubles), they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur (or everlasting destruction)."(Rev 19:19, 20)
     
  16. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Hmm. Is this the "official" JW position?
    The first beast of Revelation 13 has the beast parts of the 4 kingdoms before it. It is an amalgamation of them.
    It represents the new kingdom within the 2 legs of the image of Daniel 2. But this kingdom tho strong as steel is "partly broken." It becomes divided in two - the legs. Geographically it grows to comprise the land of Babylon, Persia, and Greece to become the beast of Revelation 13.
    The image of the beast is not this same power but rises out of the wilderness rather than the sea and makes fire reign down from the sky ie bombs. This image of the beast is the United States which will become more corrupt, and causes persecution of the people of God. So although I appreciate your input, we differ in the interpretation of the law of Revelation.
    Cheers
     
  17. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Sorry for my delay in responding to your post. I will respond to this in another post.

    ditto

    But they didn't "share" power 1 hr with the beast in the treaty with Rome before it's downfall to them. They didn't cause the downfall of Rome. They just came in after the fact and tried to grab "the spoils." They also didn't comprise any of the present nations of Europe. Of the 10 I mentioned 2 still exist in the kingdoms they carved out - the Franks in France, and the Visigoths in Spain. 3 were "plucked up" by the roots, however, and completely disappeared from history.

    He used his persuasion to encourage Justinian and provided information. He obviously wanted Justinian to reclaim Rome for the "Roman empire." There is evidence of their communication and cooperation.
     
  18. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Does this sound like a UT Church service?
    Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

    But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

    Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

    And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

    CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)
    Saint Justin Martyr 2nd century (Pre-Nicaea)
     
  19. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Are you asking if this is like an Unorthodox service or a Utah service?
    Although I believe Justin Martyr had insights into the gospel I do not accept his words as scripture. Nevertheless:

    It looks like they are already changing his words to eliminate baptism by immersion. Funny you should bring this up. Our priesthood quorems are led by a president. How about yours? Ours are "set apart." Our deacons and priest also take the sacrament to the elderly and sick not in attendance ie like he says "those absent." How about yours?

    While we do not believe in the "transmutation" of the sacrament - we do it in remembrance of Him - we are given express council not to partake of the sacrament unless we gain a testimony.

    3 Nephi 18:29
    29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

    So yeah, I'd say in the important particulars the LDS church is like the early church. Thank you
     
  20. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Picking out words to attempt to connect to the past would be one thing. Am talking about recognizing what is being described as a Mass, which any Catholic would. I did not realize Mormons had Eucharist in their service. Interesting.

    I did not mean "sounds like" as in using a few similar words. I meant what the Saint is describing he would recognize in the Mass done in English today without even understanding the words being said.
     
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