Was the Lord's supper Passover?

[pat34lee]

With the threads on Passover, the OP's were different, so I made a thread specifically for this.

There are a couple of things that suggest that it could not have been a Passover seder that they ate.

1. Wrong day. This was the night before Passover was eaten. Which brings another problem.

2. No lamb. There was only one place to get a Passover lamb killed. Do you think the priests would have killed one for him a day ahead of time?

So how were the disciples preparing the Passover that day? They had to check the room for leaven.

The phrase "prepare the Passover" found in Matthew 26:19, Mark 14:16, and Luke 22:13 comes from the Greek phrase hetoimasan to pascha. According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek verb root hetoimazo means: "1) to make ready, prepare 1a) to make the necessary preparations, get everything ready . . . drawn from the oriental custom of sending on before kings on their journeys persons to level the roads and make them passable." Clearly, the reason the disciples questioned Yeshua about where they were going to eat the Passover meal was because Jewish custom required that the location be prepared by removing the leaven from it on the night of Nisan 14.
Last Supper - Was it the Passover Meal? - Here a little, there a little - Holy Days
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[Henaynei]

I agree it was not The Passover. We believe it was what was known as a teaching Seder for His disciples.
In the Pharisaic tradition, He was teaching His disciples the deeper meanings in the Seder. It was, in essence, a rehearsal Seder.
Scripture specifically states that He died at the time the Pasakh sacrifices were being made at the Temple. Thus it could not have been the actual Seder He shared with His disciples.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I agree it was not The Passover. We believe it was what was known as a teaching Seder for His disciples.
In the Pharisaic tradition, He was teaching His disciples the deeper meanings in the Seder. It was, in essence, a rehearsal Seder.
Scripture specifically states that He died at the time the Pasakh sacrifices were being made at the Temple. Thus it could not have been the actual Seder He shared with His disciples.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I wrote this in another board;

Ok assuming that the creation of the Seder came after, in the bible it's called the Last Supper. If there's a last then there was a first. Whether it was a Seder I'll give you that, Seder I mean the tradional elements.

But we can't discount that there were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the last supper because of the above without going beyond scripture and without going to extra sources or traditions.

So whether it was a Seder as in the traditional elements isn't the issue or question or debate. There were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the Last Supper.

If I say this is my last birthday party celebration with you this is in relation to prior birthday party celebrations. Since it's my last I'm going to add a significant element because it's my last time I'm going to celebrate your birtday with you that is in relation to the prior ones.

 

[Henaynei]

It was the Last meal Yeshua had, the Last meal that He ate with His disciplines and the Last teaching Seder He did with them.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

It was the Last meal Yeshua had, the Last meal that He ate with His disciplines and the Last teaching Seder He did with them.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Right. My post doesn't suggest it was a Seder according to modern Haggadah. I'm taking an approach that proves the meal or supper they had which is called the Last Supper is not a new meal or supper without going beyond scripture. At this point I'm sure we agree. I'm confident that my previous post proves that these meals or suppers were not new.

Now we can start to prove that it was a Seder. And that traditions change over generations. We don't want to be dogmatic without truth. I mean we can say the audience in the Gospel's would have known it was a Seder so it didn't need to be included, what good is that without providing truth? Without truth it's dogmatic.

 

[ContraMundum]

Many in the Eastern Orthodox tradition believe that the Lord's Supper was initiated the night before Pesach. Thus the Bread and Wine was a kiddush (although this happens as part of a seder as well). What some note is that if this the case then in fact Jesus was crucified while the Passover lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple. There's other interesting things of note, but I don't think people on this forum are interested in any depth on this topic, as most here refuse the Lord's Supper in their spiritual life anyway (as we have found out many, many times on this topic through the years)


Either way, it shouldn't matter for us here in the 21stC, as now Pesach and the Lord's Supper celebrate different events in salvation history.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Many in the Eastern Orthodox tradition believe that the Lord's Supper was initiated the night before Pesach. Thus the Bread and Wine was a kiddush (although this happens as part of a seder as well). What some note is that if this the case then in fact Jesus was crucified while the Passover lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple. There's other interesting things of note, but I don't think people on this forum are interested in any depth on this topic, as most here refuse the Lord's Supper in their spiritual life anyway (as we have found out many, many times on this topic through the years)


Either way, it shouldn't matter for us here in the 21stC, as now Pesach and the Lord's Supper celebrate different events in salvation history.

The point is the Last Supper was before the Pesach. What don't you agree with the below?

Ok assuming that the creation of the Seder came after, in the bible it's called the Last Supper. If there's a last then there was a first. Whether it was a Seder I'll give you that, Seder I mean the tradional elements.

But we can't discount that there were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the last supper because of the above without going beyond scripture and without going to extra sources or traditions.

So whether it was a Seder as in the traditional elements isn't the issue or question or debate. There were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the Last Supper.

If I say this is my last birthday party celebration with you this is in relation to prior birthday party celebrations. Since it's my last I'm going to add a significant element because it's my last time I'm going to celebrate your birtday with you that is in relation to the prior ones.

 

[ContraMundum]

The point is the Last Supper was before the Pesach. What don't you agree with the below?

Ok assuming that the creation of the Seder came after, in the bible it's called the Last Supper. If there's a last then there was a first. Whether it was a Seder I'll give you that, Seder I mean the tradional elements.

But we can't discount that there were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the last supper because of the above without going beyond scripture and without going to extra sources or traditions.

So whether it was a Seder as in the traditional elements isn't the issue or question or debate. There were meals or suppers in relation to Passover prior to the Last Supper.

If I say this is my last birthday party celebration with you this is in relation to prior birthday party celebrations. Since it's my last I'm going to add a significant element because it's my last time I'm going to celebrate your birtday with you that is in relation to the prior ones.

I'm cool with what you say, actually. I'm not sure what the others think though.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I'm cool with what you say, actually. I'm not sure what the others think though.

So are we agreeing that prior to the last supper there were meals or suppers in relation to the Passover which were traditionally implemented in relation to the Passover?

 

[Avodat]

It needs to be remembered that whatever we are discussing from The Book we have only a part of the whole account; I do not think we have a complete account of anything contained within its pages. However, we should not add in supposition (from whichever source) nor remove that which we think is not truth (under any pretext). We can only 'prove' the truth of Scripture by weighing it against other parts of Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Not being able to understand something doesn't make it in error - it just means that we haven't sufficient to make a value judgement about it. The sooner we grasp these basics the less time we will spend on fruitless, circular debates.

Just a general observation - not aimed at anyone.

 

[ContraMundum]

So are we agreeing that prior to the last supper there were meals or suppers in relation to the Passover which were traditionally implemented in relation to the Passover?

Quite possibly, and why not? We Jews are traditionally big on eating together.

I think you are making an interesting point.

 

[ContraMundum]

It needs to be remembered that whatever we are discussing from The Book we have only a part of the whole account; I do not think we have a complete account of anything contained within its pages. However, we should not add in supposition (from whichever source) nor remove that which we think is not truth (under any pretext). We can only 'prove' the truth of Scripture by weighing it against other parts of Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Not being able to understand something doesn't make it in error - it just means that we haven't sufficient to make a value judgement about it. The sooner we grasp these basics the less time we will spend on fruitless, circular debates.

Just a general observation - not aimed at anyone.

..and as usual, an astute observation.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Quite possibly, and why not? We Jews are traditionally big on eating together.

I think you are making an interesting point.

I'm referring to eating together in relation to the Passover.

Either way, it shouldn't matter for us here in the 21stC, as now Pesach and the Lord's Supper celebrate different events in salvation history.

If they were eating together in relation to the Passover and we agree that prior to the last supper there were meals or suppers in relation to the Passover which were traditionally implemented in relation to the Passover then Yeshua's 'last will testament' speech(is that the right expression?) was part of this meal they always had prior.

Maybe we could rephrase the question as 'Was Jesus last supper a Passover celebration?' ??

 

[cyberlizard]

this is not my post, someone simply asked me to post their comments, so I will neither justifiy their words nor debate their meaning. The comment is theirs and does necessarily reflect my own opinion. Steve

To understand the Hebrew mindset, we can see even to this day where an
orthodox rabbi will meet on the day before the Passover with His
students and conduct a training lesson on the Passover Seder. In the
Lubavitch rabbinic movement they gather together the night before the
Passover for what they call the “Moschiach’s Supper”.

 

[Henaynei]

Either way, it shouldn't matter for us here in the 21stC, as now Pesach and the Lord's Supper celebrate different events in salvation

for us, my family, co-religionists and our students, the Pesakh and what is called the L-rd's Supper are the same event - celebrating more than one Deliverance or Redemption.

As we understand it:
No it was not The Pesakh Seder that Yeshua shared with His disciples that night
Yes they had likely had this teaching Seder gathering the other years they were following Messiah
Yes we believe He was teaching ABOUT The Pesakh Seder. Thus we do During our traditional Pesakh Seder as He taught, with the Matzah and Cup "after the meal" - aka The Cup of Redemption in the traditional Seder.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

Error post
Sorry

 

[Steve Petersen]

Whether or not the Last Supper was a Seder might also depend on which of the Gospel accounts you read. The Synoptics seem to disagree with John regarding the timing of the Last Supper.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Whether or not the Last Supper was a Seder might also depend on which of the Gospel accounts you read. The Synoptics seem to disagree with John regarding the timing of the Last Supper.

I discovered a couple years ago when I was reading one of the Gospels.. 'how can you eat the Passover on the 1st day of unleavened bread when the Passover had already passed?'

 

[Lulav]

The Passover only needs be killed on the 14th, it does not have to be eaten on the 14th.

The Passover is killed in the afternoon of the 14th, then bled out and roasted. By the time this is done nightfall has come and a new day, the 15th on which the matzah and bitter herbs must be eaten, thus they are eaten together.

And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire

 

[Yahudim]

Which brings us back to erev Pesach. According to our Sister Visionary:

Firstborn males over the age of Bar Mitzvah (13) are obligated to fast on the 14th of Nissan, in recognition of the fact that during the "Plague of the Firstborn" (which occurred at midnight of Nissan 15) G-d "passed over" the Jewish firstborn when He killed all firstborn Egyptians. If there is a firstborn male in the family under 13, the obligation to fast rests with the father. The prevailing custom, however, is for the firstborn to exempt themselves from the obligation to fast by participating in a seudat mitzvah (a meal marking the fulfillment of a mitzvah), such as a siyyum--a festive meal celebrating the conclusion of the study of a section of Torah).Chabad.org - Fast of the First Born