Was The Jerusalem Decree Authoritative?

Der Alte

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I see another question.
(CLV) Mk 10:17
And at His going out into the road, lo! one certain rich man, running toward Him and falling on his knees before Him, inquired of Him, "Good Teacher! What shall I be doing that I should be enjoying the allotment of life eonian?"
(CLV) Mk 10:18
Now Jesus said to him, "Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except One, God.
(CLV) Mk 10:19
With the precepts you are acquainted: You should not be murdering. You should not be committing adultery. You should not be stealing. You should not be testifying falsely. You should not be cheating. `Be honoring your father and •mother.'"
(CLV) Mk 10:20
Now he averred to Him, "Teacher, all these I maintain from my youth."
(CLV) Mk 10:21
Now Jesus, looking at him, loves him, and said to him, "Still one thing you are wanting. Go. Whatever you have, sell, and be giving to the poor, and you will be having treasure in heaven. And hither! Follow Me, -picking up the cross."
Must we be saved to receive eternal life?
Jesus did not say that the rich man would be saved by giving away all his goods only that the would have treasure in heaven.
This is supposed to a a literal translation.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words?

EOB Mark 10:17-21
17 As Jesus was setting out on his journey, someone ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do in order to inherit eternal life?”
18 Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except one: God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not give false testimony,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and mother.’ ”
20 The man replied, “Teacher, I have observed all these things since my youth!”
21 Jesus looked at him and felt love for him. He then said, “You [still] lack one thing. If you want to be perfect, go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor. You will have a treasure in heaven! Then come and follow me, taking up the cross.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mk 10:17–21). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.


 
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HARK!

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Jesus did not say that the rich man would be saved by giving away all his goods only that the would have treasure in heaven.
This is supposed to a a literal translation.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words?

EOB Mark 10:17-21
17 As Jesus was setting out on his journey, someone ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do in order to inherit eternal life?”
18 Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except one: God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not give false testimony,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and mother.’ ”
20 The man replied, “Teacher, I have observed all these things since my youth!”
21 Jesus looked at him and felt love for him. He then said, “You [still] lack one thing. If you want to be perfect, go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor. You will have a treasure in heaven! Then come and follow me, taking up the cross.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mk 10:17–21). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.



Yahshua did however say that the man must do something to inherit eternal life.

Fortunately this key point wasn't lost in either translation.

If you look back at the context of my post; you'll see that it was about eternal life, not treasure.

It's an interesting side point; but it has no bearing on the nature of my question.

Thank you for your interest.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, we must be aware of bias.
Clearly your source does not conform to textual criticism; therefore it presents known forgeries, with respect to scripture.
Acts 15:24
MT: Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment
CT: Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, to whom we gave no such commandment

List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
No matter how accurately a biased forgery is translated; it's still a translation of a biased forgery.
Thank you for bringing this key point to our attention.
You can't be serious! Quoting Wiki as a reliable source? Let's get real here. Every page at Wiki has [Edit] links anyone can change, delete, add anything they want without review or control. It will take a lot more than that to disprove the EOB. There are 200 pages of scholarship at the link I posted.
ETA: While there is a textual variant at Act 15:24 vs. 1 has the phrase "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." So your argument is moot.
 
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Der Alte

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Yahshua did however say that the man must do something to inherit eternal life.
Fortunately this key point wasn't lost in either translation.
If you look back at the context of my post; you'll see that it was about eternal life, not treasure.
It's an interesting side point; but it has no bearing on the nature of my question.
Thank you for your interest.
Your reply is irrelevant . Jesus said NOTHING about eternal life which is basically what I said. There is no such name as Yahshua! You can check the Jewish Encyclopedia if you don't believe me. But I'm sure you consider yourself a better Hebrew scholar that the Jewish scholars who compiled the JE. For your information a textual variant is not necessarily a forgery.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If this council is generally authoritative to Christians then none of the Apostolic writings could be considered generally authoritative. We would be forced instead to have only the gospels be our authority and the Church could not govern or set rules for itself.

I wouldn't know how to consider the faith if we exclude a direct apostolic decree to the Gentiles. It would reduce Christianity to something the individual decides when it has never been or intended as such.
 
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Randy777

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The Jerusalem Decree
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send
chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas
who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell.

Did the church under the apostles and elders, have the authority to dismiss the claim that
non-Jews living among the nations must be circumcised and keep the Law?
Who was it that made this claim?

Acts 15:5. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying,
“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So who had the authority in this matter, Pharisees or apostles?
They had Gods approval.
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
 
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timothyu

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They had Gods approval.
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
I take it their opinion of the gentiles had never been that high. And the gentiles consisted of their 10 tribal brethren also.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Did the church under the apostles and elders, have the authority to dismiss the claim that
non-Jews living among the nations must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses?
Who was it that made this claim?
Acts 15:5. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying,
“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So who had the authority in this matter, Pharisees or apostles?


The Jerusalem Decree

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send
chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas
who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell.

Yes, it authoritative, but not according to its commands. What I mean is this: Context is everything in interpreting a passage. Go back to what caused the council to gather. The question was whether the Gentiles had to undergo Jewish ceremonies before becoming Christians. The previous context describes Peter's experience with a Gentile Cornelius. Because he didn't have Cornelius and others with him circumcised when they were filled with the Holy Spirit, the church leadership gathered to decide this dispute. They heard Peter's story and decided on a compromise, which is the letter that they sent to the churches.

The main point of the passage is that the church is a gathering of people from all cultures, not just of Jewish Christians. The application is that we need to reach out to a variety of people and, when they become seekers, educate them on God's principles and the ways that God wants us to live. We need to see evidence of their repentance and desire to live God's way before they are then considered members because God wants us to be walking the path toward our final perfection.

That's why, I believe, the church asked the Gentile churches to do the things they said.
 
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timothyu

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The Jerusalem 'church' was intent on following a way of life contrary to the ways of man. The gentiles were intent on building yet another of their institutions, this one a religion which eventually rejoined the world of man, rejecting the Kingdom.
 
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Mr. M

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Finally, Peter was called to task immediately on this matter in Acts 11:
1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received
the word of God.
2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, “You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!”
4 But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying:
Peter recounts his vision.
12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house.
Not just Peter's testimony, 6 other witnesses.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ,
who was I that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying,
Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.

The four commandments given in Acts 15 deals directly with this issue:
The fellowship of Jews with Gentiles at the Lord's table:

Galatians 2:
11
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because
he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles;
but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who
were of the circumcision.
13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even
Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel,
I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles
and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and
not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
 
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Randy777

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It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
 
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Clare73

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Did the church under the apostles and elders, have the authority to dismiss the claim that
non-Jews living among the nations must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses?
Who was it that made this claim?
Acts 15:5. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying,
“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So who had the authority in this matter, Pharisees or apostles?


The Jerusalem Decree

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send
chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas
who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
The apostles had the authority to speak for Jesus, as well as for God (Luke 10:16; John 13:20).
 
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public hermit

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He was the head of the Jewish Christians.

Perhaps at some point in the early church making that kind of distinction fits. But what I see in Acts 15 is him as the head of the church. Yes, Acts 15 was a council of sorts, there was much debate, but at the end of the day it was James who decided ("Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God"). Interestingly, it was not Peter.
 
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timothyu

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but at the end of the day it was James who decided ("Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God"). Interestingly, it was not Peter.
Were there a Rome connection to James, he would have been in the running. All roads to some people's thinking must lead to Rome as that is where their allegiance lies.
 
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Clare73

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Perhaps at some point in the early church making that kind of distinction fits. But what I see in Acts 15 is him as the head of the church. Yes, Acts 15 was a council of sorts, there was much debate, but at the end of the day it was James who decided ("Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God"). Interestingly, it was not Peter.
Yes, he was head of the church in Jerusalem which was the beginning of the church, about 10 years old before the gospel was actually taken to the Gentiles.
But it seems he acted in concurrence with the apostles and elders (Acts 15:23), not independently.

Not surprisingly, all were under the authority of the church of the apostles in Jerusalem.
 
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public hermit

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apostles and elders (Acts 15:23), not independently

Agreed. They seemed to have placed a lot of import on debate and letting everyone have a say. And, the decision of whom to send seems to be almost a vote (at least it was unanimous consent, indicating something like a democratic process). Nonetheless, smack dab in the middle of debate and group decision is James asserting an authoritative decision. I wonder how much power he had. Could he override the group's consent if for some reason it seemed good to James?
 
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Clare73

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Agreed. They seemed to have placed a lot of import on debate and letting everyone have a say. And, the decision of whom to send seems to be almost a vote (at least it was unanimous consent, indicating something like a democratic process). Nonetheless, smack dab in the middle of debate and group decision is James asserting an authoritative decision. I wonder how much power he had. Could he override the group's consent if for some reason it seemed good to James?
That's a good question. . .which raises more.
 
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daq

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(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Note that your translation rightly states "the custom of Moses", which was nothing more than the natural minded Pharisee way of interpretation and understanding the Torah, and which began with outward physical circumcision as the sign of the covenant, and therefore required the person becoming a Yhudi to then follow through with everything else the Pharisees taught in their own natural minded understanding of the Torah.

Note also that a scripture quote in post #30 above mentions "the works of the law". This also, (at least imo), is closely related to "the custom of Moses", if not the same thing, which is to observe the Torah according to the natural minded Pharisee way, including of course the natural minded handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees of the Elders and Sanhedrin which were nailed to the stake. Strapping on tefillin and wearing tzitzit on the four wings of your garment are perfect examples of the outward nature of "the works of the law" enjoined by the Pharisees because of their outward interpretation of the Torah.
 
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The Jewish sages count 613 distinct mitzvot--instructions or commandments--in the Torah. There are a lot of very different sorts of commandments. Some of them are universal, like don't murder. Murder wasn't just wrong for Jews, it has always been wrong for everyone, just ask Cain. Those, obviously, apply to us, as they apply to everyone. But the very specific commands for the Jews, those which marked them as a special covenant people, such as the sorts of foods to eat, the days to observe, laws concerning ritual purity, or how the Sanhedrin was to dole out justice (both against offender and for the offended), how marriage and divorce work, etc etc. Those are unique to the Torah, that is, they are uniquely given to the Jews as part of God's covenant.

As a Gentile Christian I don't see the point in pretending I'm Jewish when I'm not. Whether or not Jewish Christians observe some of these things, that's really up to them and their personal choice--Jewish Christians are no more obligated to observe them then Gentile Christians are; but at least I understand why a Jewish Christian might want to retain some of their Jewish history, tradition, and identity. But that's really what we have though, freedom, whether we eat this or that food doesn't matter, as long as we do so with a pure conscience before God. It's why Paul says that both being circumcised and not being circumcised are irrelevant, it just doesn't matter, but that both have a place at Christ's Table without distinction, for there is now neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, but we are all one in Christ Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
Jews do not expect Gentiles to keep the 613 commandments, but only the Noahide laws that they believe God delivered to Noah for all mankind.
 
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