WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN YOU CAN BREAK GOD'S LAW AND NOT SURELY DIE?

[LoveGodsWord]

There is an unwritten assumption here that we are able to will ourselves to keep all the commandments perfectly. The law was brought for a time to show us we needed salvation. If we had been able to keep all the commandments and please God, why would Jesus have needed to die for us?

Galatians 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

Hi Loren, great to meet you. Thanks for your thoughts.

I do not think there is any assumptions here or that anyone believes that we are saved by trying to keep God's 10 Commandments. We are all only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves. It is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8). The gospel however is the POWER of GOD unto salvation from sin to everyone who believes and follows God's WORD * ROMANS 1:16.

Jesus says They that be whole need not a physician but they that are sick. I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS but sinners to repentance, go learn what that means *MATTHEW 9:12-13.

Jesus says also says; IF you continue in my WORD then are you my disciples in deed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free from sin *JOHN 8:31-36. This is the difference between those who have a FORM of godliness but deny the power of GOD and those who have righteousness by faith to walk in God's Spirit *2 TIMOTHY 3:5; GALATIANS 5:15.

This is why Jesus says else where truly truly I say unto you unless a man in born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven *JOHN 3:3-8. Those that are born again do not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:9. Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN have neither seen him wo know him *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:9-10. Faith without works is dead *JAMES 2:18-20. True faith has the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's WORD *ROMANS 13:8-10 and is why we need a NEW HEART to LOVE which is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

LOVE IS THE FULFILLING of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and walk in his SPIRIT *ROMANS 13:9-10; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4.

God's LAW only remains on letters of stone to all those who break it. There are 10 Commandments and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:8-11.

GOD'S LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS) is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS * ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:8-11.

Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27

Thanks for sharing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Good stuff! Satan indeed told the 1st lie in the Bible when he said, "Ye shall not surely die ..." but the 1st human lie in the Bible belongs to Cain when he said, "I know not, am I my brother's keeper?" Just some thoughts.

Hi James, great to meet you here! Yes interesting thoughts about Cain. It was kind of like Adam and Eve in the garden trying to hide from God because they knew they were naked. Thanks for your thoughts brother James. Very insightful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It should be obvious. There were no commandments, but one when God was there. Since this topic has been discussed elsewhere, the more interesting question is how did Satan know about Adam and Eve and that they were in the Garden?

Hi James nice to see you. Of course there was commandments in the Garden of Eden. The commandment was given to Adam in...

GENESIS 2:16-17 [16], And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: [17], But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

Not sure why you think the question how did Satan know Adam and Eve were there in the garden is more interesting but each to their own. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[FatalHeart]

Already addressed in post # 46 linked. Thanks for your thoughts FH. How do your thoughts relate to the OP here?

I think Galatians has made it quite clear that trying to be justified through the old law is a sin. I also think because Hebrews made it quite clear that there has been a change of law and you stand responsible for teaching otherwise. Remember that someone who breaks one law is guilty of breaking all of it and pleasantries like, "Hope this helps," and, Thank you," are not a substitute for actually listening.

If you had paid attention, you would have understood that my comment came far before your answers to the questions of someone else with the same proposals, and that your answer no more related to our conversation than those things in another thread. Asking me how my thoughts relate after I already related them because of this fact is somewhat disturbing, much like asking "What do you believe?", and, after the person answers, saying, "I addressed that. Now, what do you believe?". I'm trying to believe you were being kind, but you don't sound kind. Even with your, "Hope this helps."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think Galatians has made it quite clear that trying to be justified through the old law is a sin. I also think because Hebrews made it quite clear that there has been a change of law and you stand responsible for teaching otherwise. Remember that someone who breaks one law is guilty of breaking all of it and pleasantries like, "Hope this helps," and, Thank you," are not a substitute for actually listening.

If you had paid attention, you would have understood that my comment came far before your answers to the questions of someone else with the same proposals, and that your answer no more related to our conversation than those things in another thread. Asking me how my thoughts relate after I already related them because of this fact is somewhat disturbing, much like asking "What do you believe?", and, after the person answers, saying, "I addressed that. Now, what do you believe?". I'm trying to believe you were being kind, but you don't sound kind. Even with your, "Hope this helps."

Hello FH, nice to see you again.

Why would you think that anyone is saying you are justified by keeping the LAW? No one is saying what your claiming so why say it? Let me know when you have some scriptures to share. The scriptures your quoting from your twisting and leaving out context adding a different meaning to them. For example the change in the law you talk about from Hebrews is from Hebrews 7:1-12. This is in relation to the Levitical laws and priesthood not the 10 Commandments. You may wish to read the context of Hebrews 7:12. Happy to talk about any of these scriptures further with you if you like and also Hebrews 4? Just let me know.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[FatalHeart]

Who's twisting scripture? Exodus 34:27-28. They belong to the Mosaic covenant, meaning they are not part of the covenant he made with Abraham. Hebrews 7:12 -change of law. Hebrews 7:18-19 -the law was useless. Galatians were reverting to old Hebrew code. They were going back to the old law. It is not I that made that conclusion, but a part of what Paul warned them of: "You who are trying to be justified by the law, do you not know what the law says?"

 

[One God]

Hello One God, nice to see thanks for your thoughts here and welcome. What in your view is the difference between a lie and someone saying something that they believe is true but may not be exactly true?

I suppose you are referring to Saul of Tarsus, in that he persecuted 'the way', the new Christian follower of Jesus, before he met the LORD on the way to Damascus.
Well, it appears that God took the time to correct his knowledge of the what the real Truth was and forgave his previous acts against the Christian Church by acknowledging his zeal for God and through his following baptism when Sauls sight was later restored - both his physical sight and his insight into Truth.
God will forgive previous transgressions, but not willful transgressions after Truth is known to you.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the first lie was, "... you must not touch it..." (in reference to the forbidden fruit)

"...You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." - Gen.3:3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God didn't say that. Where did Eve hear that? (Adam) ???

Actually the biggest lie is what the OP is trying to pawn off on us. But we need to back up to chapter two to see it.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God said they would die "in the day that thou eatest thereof". And they did. They died that very day. How could this be? Well, it wasn't physical death, obviously. They died spiritually.

 

[Saint Steven]

This whole topic is a veiled attack on the immortality of the soul.

"WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN YOU CAN BREAK GOD'S LAW AND NOT SURELY DIE?"

The Bible says that sin was in the world before the law was given. So how could the law be broken in the garden?

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given...

 

[Saint Steven]

The discussion between the serpent and Eve had nothing to do with the immortality of the soul. It was about the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit. (spiritual death)

There are two kinds of life and two kinds of death. Physical and spiritual.
1) Physical life and physical death
2) Spiritual life and spiritual death

Adam and Eve died in the day they ate thereof.
Did they die physically or spiritually?

 

[Saint Steven]

Hello All,

The question for discussion today is...

WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN; YOU CAN BREAK ANY OF GOD'S COMMANDEMENTS AND NOT DIE WHEN GOD'S TOLD ADAM AND EVE NOT TO EAT THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT LEST YOU DIE?

…

Which of the Ten Commandments are you claiming that Adam and Eve broke?

 

[Saint Steven]

Is it a good thing to be like God? (godliness)

What was the anticipated effect of eating the forbidden fruit?
What was the actual effect of eating the forbidden fruit? (besides spiritual death)

Genesis 3:5, 22
5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the source of our human conscience. Something good came from something bad.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. ...

This is all built on the HUGE assumption that the Sabbath is for Christians. It never was. It was given to the Israelites. God even said it was a sign between Him and the Israelites.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12, 20
12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. …
20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

 

[childeye 2]

Hello All,

The question for discussion today is...

WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN; YOU CAN BREAK ANY OF GOD'S COMMANDEMENTS AND NOT DIE WHEN GOD'S TOLD ADAM AND EVE NOT TO EAT THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT LEST YOU DIE?

Let's start at John and at the beginning of Genesis 3

Let's start here with the father of lies......

JOHN 8:44
[44], Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: FOR HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF IT.

The Devil is the Father of LIES those that do not FOLLOW God follow their Father the devil and the deeds of their father they will do.

links to...........

1 JOHN 2:3-4
[3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and KEEPS NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, is a LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM

links to...........

1 JOHN 4:8
[4], Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5], And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6], Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8], He that committeth sin is of the devil; (the father of lies and the deeds of their father they will do)

NOTE: The father of lies is from the begining. Let's go to the beginning of GENESIS and see what John is talking about?

GENESIS 3:1-11
[1], Now the SEPENT <Satan Rev 12:9> was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the WOMEN <Church good or bad; Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27; Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9; Ezk 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4>, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

[2], And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the FRUIT of the trees of the garden: <FRUIT of OBEDIENCE (James 2:18; 20; 26; Matthew 7:12-23; Jon 15:1-10)

[3], But of the FRUIT of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, LEST YOU DIE <God's LAW; represents God's 10 commandments which gives the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEUSNESS; Good and Evil; Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Ps 119:172; but makes nothing perfect>.

[4], And the serpent said unto the woman, YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE:< The first LIE from the beginning; John 8:44)

[5], For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. < Prior to DIOBEYING God Mankind DID NOT KNOW what EVIL (SIN) was because they were in HARMONY and OBEDIENT to God's WORD>

[6], And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[7], And THE EYES OF THEM WERE OPENED, AND THEY KNEW THAT THEY WERE NAKED; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. <God's LAW is the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS; When they SINNED they now had the KNOWLEDGE of both GOOD and EVIL; Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Ps 119:172; The saw that they were naked and tried to cover themselves with figleaves; SIN took away their RIGHTEOUSNESS and now they are guilty before God in SIN; NAKED before God in SIN trying to cover themselves with figleaves (flithy rags) Isaiah 63:6; Righteousness to cover our nakedness only from God; Luke 15:22; If we SIN we lose it; Romans 3:19 >

[8], And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

[9], And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
[10], And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
[11], And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Key points and putting it all together..........

The Serpent and father of LIES is the Devil he lied to MANKIND from the beginning. God's Commandment to Adam and Eve was NOT to eat of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (SIN AND RIGHTESOUNESS) lest you DIE.

Adam and Eve did not have the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (SIN AND RIGHTESOUNESS) because they had NEVER SINNED and where in HARMONY with God in OBEDIENCE to HIS WORD.

THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments. The TAKING THE FRUIT symbolizes BREAKING the TREE and DISOBEYING God's Commandment.

God says do not eat of the fruit, lest you DIE. By eating the fruit Adam and Eve chose NOT TO BELIEVE GOD and to BELIEVE the serpent. (UNBELIEF in GOD's WORD)

.................

THIS IS A WARNING FOR US TODAY. THE same LIE told to ADAM and EVE is being repeated in the mainstream Churches of today.

SIN is the transgression of GOD'S LAW and if anyone CONTINUES in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN; God's WORD says they will DIE and not ENTER THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8; Matthew 7:12-23)

It is only by partaking of the TREE of LIFE (BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word by LOVE) through FAITH that Gods FRUITS of OBEDIENCE are seen in the life of God's true people (1 John 3:3-10; Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14) and is why Jesus says if you LOVE me keep my commandments ( John 14:15; 15:10)

If you break God's Commandments just like in the days of Adam and EVE you commit SIN (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will surely die and will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

...............

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

May God bless you as you seen him through his Word?

What are your thoughts?

I believe that the first lie was God is a liar. That is the sentiment I see being presented with subtlety and cunning, and hidden behind the semantics in,"you will not surely die". It's a form of psychological manipulation.

 

[childeye 2]

This is all built on the HUGE assumption that the Sabbath is for Christians. It never was. It was given to the Israelites. God even said it was a sign between Him and the Israelites.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12, 20
12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. …
20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

So if a person forgets that it is God that makes the person Holy, what good is doing the Sabbath? Or does God make people Holy who keep the Sabbath? Sounds something like Catholic doctrine concerning transubstantiation. Perhaps I'm getting off topic.

 

[One God]

This whole topic is a veiled attack on the immortality of the soul.

"Immortal soul? Where does the Bible speak of 'immortal soul'?"
I have searched my Bible for that phrase, but I can’t find it."

 

[Saint Steven]

"Immortal soul? Where does the Bible speak of 'immortal soul'?"
I have searched my Bible for that phrase, but I can’t find it."

Did you really search your Bible, or are you lying already? (within 5 posts - tsk, tsk)
Welcome to the forum. It's actually a term used by the other side, so obviously not in the Bible. Can you find the term Ten Commandments in the New Testament? Rapture? Trinity? Personal prayer language?

 

[Der Alte]

"Immortal soul? Where does the Bible speak of 'immortal soul'?"
I have searched my Bible for that phrase, but I can’t find it."

…..According to some the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But in Isaiah is a long passage about the death of the king of Babylon. God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In the NT Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

These three passages speak of the unrighteous dead having some kind of conscious awareness after death.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hello All,

The question for discussion today is...

WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN; YOU CAN BREAK ANY OF GOD'S COMMANDEMENTS AND NOT DIE WHEN GOD'S TOLD ADAM AND EVE NOT TO EAT THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT LEST YOU DIE?

If you're asking if the first time that the devil lied was in the Garden of Eden, because you really want to know when the devil first sinned - I'd say maybe.
Lucifer chose to rebel against God and become greater than him. Maybe he lied when he asked other angels to join him, and said that they would become greater than God, or maybe he was so proud that he thought he could do it.

The first lie that is recorded that the devil spoke, is the one to Eve, "you surely will not die."

But it seems like that is just a long preamble to the main point of your post, which is "we need to keep the Sabbath".
In which case; you're on your own.

 

[daydreamer40]

…..According to some the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But in Isaiah is a long passage about the death of the king of Babylon. God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In the NT Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

These three passages speak of the unrighteous dead having some kind of conscious awareness after death.

Indeed, also:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,d]'>[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits – 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 1Peter3:18-20

The above could not be true if the dead knew, and could comprehend nothing