WAS THE FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN YOU CAN BREAK GOD'S LAW AND NOT SURELY DIE?

[LoveGodsWord]

What God said -
Genesis 2 chapter 17 verse:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What Eve said -
Genesis 3 chapter 3 verse:
Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest you die

The first lie told in the Bible appears to be uttered by Eve; it is unfortunate for mankind that she did not understand that you shall not take away nor add to the Word of God.

Hello One God, nice to see thanks for your thoughts here and welcome. What in your view is the difference between a lie and someone saying something that they believe is true but may not be exactly true?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

These questions always bring up extreme forms of thinking in that some don't even believe sin exists or that every single thing you do is a sin. Those that wish not to be obedient are obviously following their own sinful desire, while those that would push some personal agenda on what sin is are just into ruining the freedom that is in Christ.

There's a type of heresy where the old levitical code is assumed to be the law even though Hebrews says there's a change of law and Galatians speaks very vehemently about trying to be justified through the levitical covenant. There's another type of heresy that denies what John says when he talks about those knowing God turning also from their sin, and that, no, you don't know Him if you don't obey.

But let's be honest. All throughout scripture it is quite clear how God stands on these things, emphasized multiple times. A careful study reveals all these things. It's therefore my judgement that those who believe in these extremes do so purposefully and not in an honest way.

Hello FatalHeart, thanks for your thoughts here. However, I am not quite show what your post has to do with the OP here? Maybe, you can explain your thoughts a little further as to how your thinking here relates to the OP? Thanks for sharing.

 

[Cement]

Satan can influence men to sin.

In the book of Acts, it is said that Satan filled Ananias's heart to lie.

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
(Acts of the Apostles 5:3).​

For that person who commits sin is of the devil.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:8).​

The devil influenced Cain to murder his brother Abel. This is how the devil is a murderer.

Ezekiel 28:16
"Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."

I noticed that in Ezekiel Satan was said to have been filled with violence due to his "widespread trade". So not only did he Lie to himself he spread his foul lies to both the Angels and Men. I always wondered how he could lie to such a vast amount of Angels before God finally decided to remove him and if his rebellion was in progress even as man was being created and put into the garden.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The serpent didn't lie outright... Eve didn't keel over after the first bite... but it set humanity down a path of increasing woe, warfare, violence, suffering from Cain (alert level x7) to Lamech (alert level x77)… ultimately, thousands of years after the initial act, all humanity had been imprisoned by sin (Isaiah 61:1-2 = Luke 4:16-18)...

Eve didn't drop right then and there... but, "Biblically soon", all of her children were born in captivity to Sin's craft

the far future of God's vast vision was trumped in Eve's mind by focus on the here and now, the wages of sin are sometimes slower in coming than humans can comprehend

Hello brother Erik, nice to meet you and welcome.

Thanks very much for your thougts here. The OP here is in relation to the first lie of the father of lies from GENESIS 3; *JOHN 8:44; 1 JOHN 3:8. I believe there is some lessons in this chapter for us as the scriptures teach; All these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11; 2 CORINTHIANS 11:3. God's WORD teaches that the Devil was the father of lies and a liar from the beginning. In GENESIS 3:4-5 his lie to Eve was that if you break God's commandment you will not die and you will be as Gods knowing GOOD and EVIL. God's WORD teaches that to break any of God's Commandments is sin and the wages of sin is death. Only because of God's great LOVE to us we have a way of escape to those who BELIEVE God's WORD *ROMANS 6:23.

Thanks for sharing brother. Enjoyed reading your thoughts.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

creative & insightful connection!

yet, we had better consider the exact Greek words used:

Evil = G4190 poneros = Romans 12:9, Genesis 2:17

Sin = G266 hamartia = Romans 3:20 = "miss the narrow path to the mark, stray wide of the target"

Eve did not have the 10C, and Eve did not know that she was sinning / hamartia'ing when eating the fruit... she had no 10C and no knowledge of her hamartia

Obviously, Eve & Adam hamartia'ed… in part b/c they had no 10C to warn them...

a more direct comparison is:

10C = Commandments of God = Genesis 2:17, "God commands don't eat the fruit of the tree"

Hello Erik, thanks for your thoughts here brother.

I think you miss the point of the earlier post. It was not suggesting or saying that ADAM and EVE had the 10 Commandments. Of course Eve did not know she was sinning. Adam and Eve where in perfect harmony with God they had never sinned and had no knowledge of what sin was. What you have missed from the discussion earlier was the question that was asked before that answer was given. The earlier question that was asked before the answer was given that your quoting from was;

What do you think the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL represents to us today? (see post #21; post #24).

The point that was being made was that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we commit sin and the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23. Also that God's 10 Commandments give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Brian, thanks for your thoughts and welcome. Some comments for your consideration below. Thanks for sharing with us.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[fn] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose[fn] and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?

ROMANS 14 is talking about days that men esteem over other days in relation to eating and not eating [fasting], not days that God esteems. There is no reference to God's 4th commandment in the whole chapter. Your reading into the scriptures what it is not saying.

You have your right to believe in Saturday Sabbath and that is cool. You are certainly judging others who do not hold with you and try to put a stumblimg block in front of them.

Not really brother as these are God's WORDS not mine.

Jesus says; If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day (John 12:47-48).

We are sinners and cannot judge anyone, neither do I judge you. Only God's Word can judge another this is why it is written...

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment (John 7:24).

There is only one good (Righteous) and that is God (Matthew 19:17). This is why the Word of God will judge us all in the last days and only the Word of God can judge RIGHTEOUSLY. So then we are permitted according to the scriptures to judge RIGHTEOUSLY according to God's Word.

All who follow him who LOVES all have a duty of LOVE to GOD and their FELLOW MAN to preach the GOSPEL (the WORD of God) because SIN will keep all who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM. God's sheep hear HIS VOICE (the WORD = RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT)

Now God's Word says.........

He that says he KNOWS HIM and DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS is a LIAR and the truth in NOT IN HIM (1 John 2:3-4)

So if someone is professing to be from God and does not teach or keep God's Commandments is it RIGHTEOUS Judgement to BELIEVE GOD'S WORD that this person is a LIAR and Does not KNOW God?

and again........

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

Now if someone comes along and starts teaching against God's Law and the prophets is it RIGHTEOUS judgement to BELIEVE God's WORD and know that person is not following God's WORD?

and again......

Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6)

Now if someone comes along and starts teaching that breaking God's law is OK, and KNOWINGLY breaks God's commandments is it RIGHTEOUS judgement to BELIEVE God's WORD and know that person is not following God's WORD and does NOT KNOW GOD?

and again......

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:7-8)

Once again, if someone comes along and starts teaching that breaking God's law is OK, and KNOWINGLY breaks God's commandments is it RIGHTEOUS judgement to BELIEVE God's WORD and know that person is not following God's WORD and does NOT KNOW GOD and is following the Devil?

and again........

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Once again, if someone comes along and starts teaching that breaking God's law is OK, and KNOWINGLY breaks God's commandments is it RIGHTEOUS judgement to BELIEVE God's WORD and know that person is not following God's WORD and does NOT KNOW GOD and is following the Devil, and that person is a false prophet (messenger). If Jesus tells us that we shall know them by their fruit (SIN or OBEDIENCE) It is RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT to BELIEVE God's WORD?

Now we can go on and on but I think you get the point.......

Severe as it may sound it is the Word of God telling us that those who teach against God's Word including the 10 commandments are NOT BELIEVING God's Word. Now you can spin it any way you want to but at the end of the day it is God's Word not mine.

God's Word is RIGHTEOUS judgement and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW IT. UNBELIEVERS are those who do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word teaching against God's LAW (Matthew 5:19).

Hebrews 4 talks about entering the rest in Christ through belief in the gospel. Also this move towards trying to bring people back to the Sabbath on Saturday is only the 1st step in this teaching i; you do not link it immediately to the teaching that Sun Sabbath is the mark of the beast. This is because no one will believe it until you have 1st convinced them of Saturday being extra special. Get off the Sabbath soapbox and on the gospel soapbox.

The GOSPEL is every word that proceeds out of the MOUTH of God (Matthew 4:4). It was preached in the OLD COVENANT as well as the NEW *HEBREWS 4:2. We all have a choice in life. We can choose to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD or not. IF we BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD we are believing and following the gospel and are a part of GOD's true ISRAEL. If you do not then you are not a part of God's ISRAEL and therefore have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

So who do we believe? The traditions and teachings of men handed down by the Romans Catholic Church or the Word of God? Jesus says that if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of God we are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Brian.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sure it's been mentioned but 2 things the first lie was not adam and eve, it was satan when he said they would not die.

Second thing they did die. what they were/everything they were that allowed them to be in the presence of God was gone, it died. They were immortal, They were a species of man we have not encountered aside from maybe an angel and I don't think they are the same type of being.

Adam and eve Died and was sent to earth must have been like hell.

We are born in this hell and when we die we go to be with God as Adam lived. we have to be born again into the life Adam had, while he had to die to come here

Hi brother drich0150, great to see you again.

Good post and right to the point. In the day Adam and Eve sinned they did lose everything just as God had said. There is consequences for sin [breaking God's commandments] and the wages of sin is death. It is only by God's mercy towards is that his great LOVE is revealed toward us to die the death that we ourselves have earned in order to bring us back to God.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and well written.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@ everyone please forgive me if I have not had time to respond to everyone's posts today. Time is short but I am really enjoying the discussion with you all and all the interesting points everyone is bringing up is great. If I have not had the chance to catch up to everyone I will try again latter as I get some more time. Thanks for sharing everyone.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

I noticed something in John it mentions that Satan the father of lies was a murderer from the beginning. But how can a spirit murder? It is with his deceiving tongue. He kills truth and those that do not believe in the Lord will believe in the devil. Also think If Satan has no truth left in him wouldn't he naturally believe in his own lie? Ye shall become as God seems oftly similar to Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".

Hi Cement, great question brother. In my view his lies were calculated to turn mankind against God so in this sense he murdered mankind because the wages of sin is death for those to reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. This started from the beginning when his lies caused the death of Adam and Eve.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Hello Erik, thanks for your thoughts here brother.

I think you miss the point of the earlier post. It was not suggesting or saying that ADAM and EVE had the 10 Commandments. Of course Eve did not know she was sinning. Adam and Eve where in perfect harmony with God they had never sinned and had no knowledge of what sin was. What you have missed from the discussion earlier was the question that was asked before that answer was given. The earlier question that was asked before the answer was given that your quoting from was;

What do you think the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL represents to us today? (see post #21; post #24).

The point that was being made was that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we commit sin and the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23. Also that God's 10 Commandments give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4.

Hope this helps.

Righteousness (dikaiosyne G1343) & Sin (hamartia G4190)

are not identical to

Good (kalon G2570) & Evil (poneros G266)


Reading the 10C into the Eden story is valuable & insightful:

10C = command of God not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil
10C = commands of God notify humans when they are straying into dangerous error, vaguely like a pilot's HUD flashing orange & red as they deviate from a flight plan

10C = commands of God != fruit of tree of knowledge of good & evil

 

[FatalHeart]

Hello FatalHeart, thanks for your thoughts here. However, I am not quite show what your post has to do with the OP here? Maybe, you can explain your thoughts a little further as to how your thinking here relates to the OP? Thanks for sharing.

Well, thanks for the kindness. Although it says a man who has entered into God's rest will rest from his work and that's why a Sabbath rest remains for God's people, it also says that we're not supposed to let men judge us about how we feel about a holy day or festival or Sabbath. You've got a very stern warning to not go back to following the law set down by Moses, but to continue in the Spirit under the new covenant. Although I believe you are absolutely correct and that everything Satan does returns to that original lie of "nothing matter," I feel the emphasis needs to be placed on God's new law set down through Christ and the Epistles in the New Testament, rather than looking back at the school master set for the Israelites.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Righteousness (dikaiosyne G1343) & Sin (hamartia G4190)

are not identical to

Good (kalon G2570) & Evil (poneros G266)


Reading the 10C into the Eden story is valuable & insightful:

10C = command of God not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil
10C = commands of God notify humans when they are straying into dangerous error, vaguely like a pilot's HUD flashing orange & red as they deviate from a flight plan

10C = commands of God != fruit of tree of knowledge of good & evil

Hi Erik, application to the scriptures quoted earlier are the correct meaning.

1. GENESIS 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD [H2896; tobe] and EVIL [H7451; raw-aw], you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

GOOD is the Hebrew word טוב tobe; the meaning is; good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women.

EVIL is the Heberw word רע רעה raw-aw the meaning is bad or (as noun) evil naturally or morally. This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Both Hebrew words used in context for GENESIS 2:17 apply to MORAL CHARACTER; Good man or woman or evil morally or against God's LAW (10 commandments).

God's 10 Commandments are the standard of Good if obeyed and Evil if disobeyed.

2. PSALMS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS [H6664; tsedeq]

RIGHTEOUSNESS is the Hebrew word צדק tsedeq and means the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

God's 10 Commandments are MORAL right doing righteous

So you can see with all three Hebrew words used in the scriptures provided earlier that GOOD, EVIL and RIGHTEOUSNESS in relation to God's 10 Commandments is to do with Charater that is morally good or morally evil. The Standard according to PSALMS 119:172 is God's Commandments.

SIN is indeed missing the Mark in the Greek [G4190] the mark however is the 10 commandments. If you have missed it or fallen short [broken any of them] you have sinned. God's LAW (10 commandments) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of sin if we miss the mark and fall short of them.

ROMANS 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

ROMANS 7:7, What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

SIN in the Hebrew [H2403] is חטּאה חטּאת khat-taw-aw' ans is slightly different meaning the offence and it's penalty and sacrifice or the offender and their punishment for sin.

So the meanings with the scriptures quoted earlier were all correct with the context application of the scriptures.

The point that was being made was that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we commit sin and the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23.

God's 10 Commandments give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4; Genesis 2:17.

This is not saying this is what was in GENESIS but the application for us today is the same lesson drawn from GENESIS 3 as God has given us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS by giving us the 10 Commandments.

Hope this helps.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Hi Erik, application to the scriptures quoted earlier is the correct meaning.

1. GENESIS 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD [H2896; tobe] and EVIL [H7451; raw-aw], you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

GOOD is the Hebrew word טוב tobe; the meaning is; good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women.

EVIL is the Heberw word רע רעה raw-aw the meaning is bad or (as noun) evil naturally or morally. This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Both Hebrew words used in context for GENESIS 2:17 apply to MORAL CHARACTER; Good man or woman or evil morally or against God's LAW (10 commandments).

God's 10 Commandments are the standard of Good if obeyed and Evil if disobeyed.

2. PSALMS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS [H6664; tsedeq]

RIGHTEOUSNESS is the Hebrew word צדק tsedeq and means the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

God's 10 Commandments are MORAL right doing righteous

So you can see with all three Hebrew words used in the scriptures provided earlier that GOOD, EVIL and RIGHTEOUSNESS in relation to God's 10 Commandments is to do with Charater that is morally good or morally evil. The Standard according to PSALMS 119:172 is God's Commandments.

SIN is indeed missing the Mark in the Greek [G4190] the mark however is the 10 commandments. If you have missed it or fallen short [broken any of them] you have sinned. God's LAW (10 commandments) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of sin if we miss the mark and fall short of them.

ROMANS 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

ROMANS 7:7, What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

SIN in the Hebrew [H2403] is חטּאה חטּאת khat-taw-aw' ans is slightly different meaning the offence and it's penalty and sacrifice or the offender and their punishment for sin.

So the meanings with the scriptures quoted earlier were all correct with the context application of the scriptures.

The point that was being made was that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we commit sin and the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23.

God's 10 Commandments give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4; Genesis 2:17.

This is not saying this is what was in GENESIS but the application for us today is the same lesson drawn from GENESIS 3 as God has given us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS by giving us the 10 Commandments.

Hope this helps.

still think you're comparing apples & oranges, so to speak

St. Paul wrote in Greek, quoting from the Greek LXX
so best to compare Paul's NT Greek to the Greek LXX OT

Everything you say is insightful, but only indirectly related, the concepts are similar but not the same... were they identically exactly the same, Paul would have used identically the same Greek words

God's Commands, from Eden to Moses, inform us what is "right" vs. "sin / error / wrong"...

not quite the same as knowledge / information about "good" vs. "bad"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

still think you're comparing apples & oranges, so to speak

St. Paul wrote in Greek, quoting from the Greek LXX
so best to compare Paul's NT Greek to the Greek LXX OT

Everything you say is insightful, but only indirectly related, the concepts are similar but not the same... were they identically exactly the same, Paul would have used identically the same Greek words

God's Commands, from Eden to Moses, inform us what is "right" vs. "sin / error / wrong"...

not quite the same as knowledge / information about "good" vs. "bad"

Not really Erik, we can use OLD TESTAMENT scriptures to show that sin is breaking any of the 10 commandments. In the days of Jesus and the Apostles their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Their application in the NEW is nothing new but what was already known from the OLD. Everyone knew that if they had broken any of the 10 commandments they had commited sin in God's eyes because this was the purpose of God's LAW and as Paul says to give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. All the scriptures that PAUL uses to say that sin is breaking any of God's 10 commandments are references to the OLD Testament as shown in the post earlier.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not really Erik, we can use OLD TESTAMENT scriptures to show that sin is breaking any of the 10 commandments. In the days of Jesus and the Apostles their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Their application in the NEW is nothing new but what was already known from the OLD. Everyone knew that if they had broken any of the 10 commandments they had commited sin in God's eyes. All the scriptures that PAUL uses to say that sin is breaking any of God's 10 commandments are references to the OLD Testament.

yes, sin = straying from (any of) the Commands of God, righteousness = keeping & abiding & obeying them

somehow not the same as "good" and "evil"

you might think they're similar concepts, but the original Hebrew & Greek words have no close connection... somehow the original authors were discussing two different concepts

you are correct to say, "sin = disobeying Commands of God"... but you have not proved that you can also say "evil = disobeying Commands of God"... some other notion is conveyed by the words "good & evil"

you are blurring together words which have no close etymological association, based on their loose association in modern English common usage

 

[LoveGodsWord]

yes, sin = straying from (any of) the Commands of God, righteousness = keeping & abiding & obeying them

somehow not the same as "good" and "evil"

Of course they are we looked at the word meanings for good and evil from GENESIS 2:17 in post # 52 linked. GOOD and EVIL is in reference to moral good and moral evil, doing good and doing bad. The context here is KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. Therefore the knowledge of good and bad moral character. The scriptures also point this out in PSALMS 119:172 in that all God's Commandments are the standards of RIGHTEOUSNESS which means right doing morally. Paul is emphsizing this in ROMANS 3:20 and ROMANS 7:7. As shown in the Hebrew already GOOD and EVIL is in reference to moral character. The Standard of moral Charater accoding to PSLAMS and PAUL is the 10 commandments.

you might think they're similar concepts, but the original Hebrew & Greek words have no close connection... somehow the original authors were discussing two different concepts

Sorry Erik that is not true. You need to look at the HEBREW and GREEK word meanings in the context of the HEBREW and GREEK scriptures they are being applied to. You are not doing this and this has been demonstrated in the earlier posts applying HEBREW to the HEBREW scriptures and GREEK to the GREEK scriptures.

you are correct to say, "sin = disobeying Commands of God"... but you have not proved that you can also say "evil = disobeying Commands of God"... some other notion is conveyed by the words "good & evil"you are blurring together words which have no close etymological association, based on their loose association in modern English common usage

Well that is not true we looked at the HEBERW Word used in GENESIS 2:17 for..
EVIL which is the Heberw word רע רעה raw-aw the meaning is bad or (as noun) evil naturally or morally. This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Hebrew word meaning for the context of Hebrew scripture. Your trying to apply Greek word meaning across Hebrew scriptures which do not change the definition of sin used by Paul and the application to the KNOLEDGE of sin and rightouesness and Good and Evil. Are you trying to argue that it is not evil to break God's 10 Commandments?

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

yes, sin = straying from (any of) the Commands of God, righteousness = keeping & abiding & obeying them
somehow not the same as "good" and "evil"

ERIK I think these applications of scripture may help. Remember that mankind was destroyed by God with a flood. WHY? GENESIS 6:5-7 gives the answer that EVERY IMAGINATION of the thoughts of his heart was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. So the application of the scriptures here is that mankind was destroyed by a flood because he had an EVIL HEART.

GENESIS 6:5-7
[5], And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY.
[6], And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
[7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for I am sorry that I have made them.

Jesus makes it very clear what he is talking about by having an EVIL HEART in the book of MATTHEW.

MATTHEW 12:34 O generation of vipers, HOW CAN YOU BEING EVIL, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

MATTHEW 15:18-19 [18], But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. [19], FOR OUT OF THE HEART PROCEED EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDER, ADULTERIES, FORNICATION, THEFTS, FALSE WITNESS, BLASPHEMIES

Once again tha application of EVIL here is to mankind having an EVIL HEART but Jesus goes further to define what is meant by having an EVIL HEART by showing that an EVIL HEART is one that breaks any of the 10 COMMANDMENTS by quoting them.

and again

MATTHEW 5:17-20; 21-22; 27-28 [17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18], For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19], Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20], For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man.

[21], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, YOU SHALL NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22], But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment

the problem is an EVIL HEART that breaks God's COMMANDMENTS.

[27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY: [28], But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Can you see the application here in all cases from the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures is that EVIL is used in relation to MORAL character the same as the HEBREW word meaning? Jesus also shows that the term EVIL is in relation to breaking any of the 10 Commandments from the heart (thoughts and feelings)?

Hope this helps brother Erik.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Of course they are we looked at the word meanings for good and evil from GENESIS 2:17 in post # 52 linked. GOOD and EVIL is in reference to moral good and moral evil, doing good and doing bad. The context here is KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. Therefore the knowledge of good and bad moral character. The scriptures also point this out in PSALMS 119:172 in that all God's Commandments are the standards of RIGHTEOUSNESS which means right doing morally. Paul is emphsizing this in ROMANS 3:20 and ROMANS 7:7. As shown in the Hebrew already GOOD and EVIL is in reference to moral character. The Standard of moral Charater accoding to PSLAMS and PAUL is the 10 commandments.



Sorry Erik that is not true. You need to look at the HEBREW and GREEK word meanings in the context of the HEBREW and GREEK scriptures they are being applied to. You are not doing this and this has been demonstrated in the earlier posts applying HEBREW to the HEBREW scriptures and GREEK to the GREEK scriptures.



Well that is not true we looked at the HEBERW Word used in GENESIS 2:17 for..
EVIL which is the Heberw word רע רעה raw-aw the meaning is bad or (as noun) evil naturally or morally. This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Hebrew word meaning for the context of Hebrew scripture. Your trying to apply Greek word meaning across Hebrew scriptures which do not change the definition of sin used by Paul and the application to the KNOLEDGE of sin and rightouesness and Good and Evil. Are you trying to argue that it is not evil to break God's 10 Commandments?

Hope this helps.

you have to compare Greek with Greek, Paul's NT Greek with the LXX OT Greek

the words Paul uses in Romans are utterly different from the words used in Eden

God said His works were all "good" (Gen 1). The serpent pointed out eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of "good" & evil would make Eve God-like. "Good" and "evil" describe something Divine and God-like, having something to do with CREATION

"Sin" & "Righteousness" simply describe disobeying or obeying God's commands

The nachash serpent, acting through Eve and on through Adam, was trying to effect something akin to God's acts of CREATION. Perhaps the serpent has been trying to "re-fashion" God's Creation to suit the serpent instead. But the words "good" and "evil" refer to some aspect, or evaluation, of CREATION by GOD (Gen 1), of God acting on the cosmos

"sin" & "righteousness" merely refer to humans disobeying or obeying God's commands to humanity, of God speaking to humanity

not directly related concepts, even though you did draw a very insightful connection, still have to say "close but no cigar", great thinking but in this case doesn't pan out

the sin of Eve in Eden was, under the serpent's guidance, trying to act like God, and "create" something to suit her fancies...

in creating something, purposing reality to suit herself, Eve gave orders... she gave more of the fruit to Adam, and he obligingly ate... he acted "righteously" towards Eve and the Serpent's commands, but "sinfully" towards God

but issuing commands & giving orders... is not the exact same as trying to "create / make / purpose" reality as God did in Gen 1

ultimately God communicates His commands to humanity via the Holy Spirit, but "created" the cosmos through the Word (John 1)… so your argument is similar to blurring the distinction between the HS & W

sin & righteousness <--> Commands of God to humans, disobey or obey
good & bad <--> Creation by God acting on the cosmos, that which accords with God is "good", that with the serpent is "bad"

you're in the same basic "ballpark", as all involve the same subject (God), but the notions relate to different verbs and different objects

• God (S) creatively acts (V) on the cosmos (O) = Gen 1
• God (S) commands (V) humans on earth (O) = Gen 2-3

Eve wanting to know "good" and "evil" = Eve aspiring to Gen 1 caliber [re-]Creation of the cosmos for the serpent...

not merely aspiring to give orders to people down on earth and make everybody obey

 

[LoveGodsWord]

you have to compare Greek with Greek, Paul's NT Greek with the LXX OT Greek

the words Paul uses in Romans are utterly different from the words used in Eden

God said His works were all "good" (Gen 1). The serpent pointed out eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of "good" & evil would make Eve God-like. "Good" and "evil" describe something Divine and God-like, having something to do with CREATION ]

"Sin" & "Righteousness" simply describe disobeying or obeying God's commands

The nachash serpent, acting through Eve and on through Adam, was trying to effect something akin to God's acts of CREATION. Perhaps the serpent has been trying to "re-fashion" God's Creation to suit the serpent instead. But the words "good" and "evil" refer to some aspect, or evaluation, of CREATION by GOD (Gen 1), of God acting on the cosmos

"sin" & "righteousness" merely refer to humans disobeying or obeying God's commands to humanity, of God speaking to humanity

not directly related concepts, even though you did draw a very insightful connection, still have to say "close but no cigar", great thinking but in this case doesn't pan out

the sin of Eve in Eden was, under the serpent's guidance, trying to act like God, and "create" something to suit her fancies...

in creating something, purposing reality to suit herself, Eve gave orders... she gave more of the fruit to Adam, and he obligingly ate... he acted "righteously" towards Eve and the Serpent's commands, but "sinfully" towards God

but issuing commands & giving orders... is not the exact same as trying to "create / make / purpose" reality as God did in Gen 1

ultimately God communicates His commands to humanity via the Holy Spirit, but "created" the cosmos through the Word (John 1)… so your argument is similar to blurring the distinction between the HS & W

sin & righteousness <--> Commands of God to humans, disobey or obey
good & bad <--> Creation by God acting on the cosmos, that which accords with God is "good", that with the serpent is "bad"

you're in the same basic "ballpark", as all involve the same subject (God), but the notions relate to different verbs and different objects

• God (S) creatively acts (V) on the cosmos (O) = Gen 1
• God (S) commands (V) humans on earth (O) = Gen 2-3

Eve wanting to know "good" and "evil" = Eve aspiring to Gen 1 caliber [re-]Creation of the cosmos for the serpent...

not merely aspiring to give orders to people down on earth and make everybody obey

Yea not really Erik, your only repeating yourself now without addressing the posts and scriptures sent to you that disagree with you. Your mistake is your not considering the HEBREW and GREEK Words with the context of all the scriptures involved as shown in posts # 52 linked and post # 56 linked with scripture examples used from the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures in relation to Evil.

Post # 57 linked uses direct example of the Word EVIL in both OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scripture showing that the within scripture application as well as word definitions in HEBREW and GREEK in both the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures is to mankind referring to MORAL character [H7451 and G4190].

In all these cases it is the MORAL character of mankind and the application of the word EVIL in the HEBREW and GREEK is to the HEART of man [thoughts and feelings] which Jesus further defines an EVIL HEART as one that breaks the 10 commandments; as referenced KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL *GENESIS 6:5-7MATTHEW 12:34 MATTHEW 15:18-19 MATTHEW 5:17-20; 21-22; 27-28 [17].

You also keep trying to apply all the above to GENESIS 3 which is not the original content of my earlier post which was only to show the application of what the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is for us today. That is why other scriptures are used througout the OLD AND NEW Testament in ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172.

Your not considering the application of both word meanings and scripture context.

Sorry friend we may need to agree to disagree. God's WORD is very clear that God's 10 Commandments give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS as shown in both HEBREW and GREEK word definitions and in the scripture proof contexts in *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; PSALMS 119:172; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:9-11; GENESIS 6:5-7; MATTHEW 12:34 MATTHEW 15:18-19 MATTHEW 5:17-20; 21-22; 27-28 [17].

Look at the scriptures above and their application to the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. Scripture context determines word meaning.

Thanks for your thoughts Erik.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well, thanks for the kindness. Although it says a man who has entered into God's rest will rest from his work and that's why a Sabbath rest remains for God's people, it also says that we're not supposed to let men judge us about how we feel about a holy day or festival or Sabbath. You've got a very stern warning to not go back to following the law set down by Moses, but to continue in the Spirit under the new covenant. Although I believe you are absolutely correct and that everything Satan does returns to that original lie of "nothing matter," I feel the emphasis needs to be placed on God's new law set down through Christ and the Epistles in the New Testament, rather than looking back at the school master set for the Israelites.

Already addressed in post # 46 linked. Thanks for your thoughts FH. How do your thoughts relate to the OP here?