Was the election of the replacement apostle Matthias divination?

[Rubiks]

The story is found Acts chapter 1. The relevant verses are 24 through 26 (NRSV):

Then they prayed and said, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Thoughts? Were the apostles in error to determine God's will through casting lots?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No.
It wasn't divination.

Yahuweh never said it was wrong, and throughout Scripture this way of finding Yahuweh's Answer was used appropriately, as Yahuweh directed.

 

[bèlla]

There are numerous biblical prohibitions against divination in the Old Testament. God does not transgress His word. For example:

You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. -Leviticus 19:26

Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God. -Leviticus 19:31 (people often pose questions to mediums when channeling spirits)

If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. -Leviticus 20:6

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. -Deuteronomy 18:10-12

And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? -Isaiah 8:19

 

[com7fy8]

Ok, so it does not directly say God had them do it. So, ones can say that just because they cast lots, this does not automatically prove it was right. But > I notice >

Their casting lots was in prayer to God. They were doing it in order to trust God. So, it was not like divination where people are depending on the lots themselves and leaving God out.

Also, in the prayer they say God is the One who knows the heart, and therefore they needed for Him to make the choice. By using lots, they could keep their own preferences and ability out of the picture. God could control which lot got picked, I think they understood. And they prayed for Him to do this; after all, it was possible that somehow some spiritual being other than God could have effected which way someone's body moved to select a lot.

They were not mature people in the Holy Spirit so they could be guided reliably, possibly we could consider. So, they could be wise to use an objective method like having God control which lot got picked. But I do believe that as we mature in Jesus, we grow in being able to reliably evaluate who should be selected to be trusted to take care of God's people. Later on, we see how Peter trusted the people to choose the seven deacons. By then, I would say, we had more mature Christians who could tell who was really full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom.

This is a sign of successful ministry: how a pastor can trust unordained people, like this.

 

[Mathetes66]

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Jonah 1:1-4,7 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city & call out against it, for their evil has come up before Me.” But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa & found a ship going to Tarshish.

So he paid the fare & went down into it, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of the Lord. But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea & there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up.

"Come!" said the sailors to one another. "Let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity that is upon us." So they cast lots & the lot fell on Jonah.

Prov 29:26 Many people seek the face of a ruler, but it is from the LORD that one receives justice.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Exodus 28:30 refers to the Urim and Thummim, which were something like the implements used in casting lots. They were ordained by God, actually.

 

[bling]

The story is found Acts chapter 1. The relevant verses are 24 through 26 (NRSV):

Then they prayed and said, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Thoughts? Were the apostles in error to determine God's will through casting lots?

Casting lots was done in other places in scripture, so it might not be wrong.

We have to do some thinking about this:

Luke rarely writes like the apostle John where John inputs lot of his personal comment in addition to the dialogue and narrative at the time, like you will find in John: But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him,

In Luke as an example: Luke does not tell us who if anyone was wrong when Paul and Barnabas split over Mark, so we have to figure it out.

We have this in Acts 1: 4…, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised…. What does “wait” mean and what activities are included in “waiting”? If the Present of the company leaves and says: “Wait until my replacement comes before leaving this spot”, would you feel comfortable enough to hire a vice-president?

How will would you do “waiting” ten days after you had the high of seeing Jesus go into heaven?

Is Peter known for his patience?

Who will be the first to speak up without thinking: Matt. 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

Look at the verses Peter put together and compare them with scripture quotes Peter gives after receiving the Holy Spirit: Acts 1:20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;

let there be no one to dwell in it,’ part of Psalm 69:25

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’ Part of Psalm 109:8

Are those partial verses really Messianic Prophecies you could have figured out without Peter saying they were? (You have to go from Ps 69 to Ps 109, so please show me any other place in scripture where that kind of putting partial verses together was done?)

What guidance would you have taken from those partial verses?

Is that the way we are to get Biblical guidance?

Did Christ use Peter’s prerequisites for the job of being an apostle when Christ selected Saul/Paul?

Acts 1: 21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us.

Suppose Christ wanted Saul/Paul to be the replacement for Judas, how would the 120 in the upper room come up with Saul/Paul?

This time of separation from Divine guidance was between Christ leaving and the Holy Spirit coming, so are they trying to force Christ to guide them in this selection when he told them he was leaving and His replacement was coming later on?

When you asked the Lord for his decision, how long should we wait to hear His answer before rolling the dice?

Should your pray time and wait time for Deities Guidance, be somewhat in proportion to the gravity of the situation, so how important is the selection of an apostle?

The very next word from Christ after they ask Christ for His choice is “Saul” and Christ said it twice so is the first “Saul” for them and the second “Saul” for Saul?

 

[Jonaitis]

Exodus 28:30 refers to the Urim and Thummim, which were something like the implements used in casting lots. They were ordained by God, actually.

Said it before I did. Dang!

 

[Guojing]

del

 

[Guojing]

The story is found Acts chapter 1. The relevant verses are 24 through 26 (NRSV):

Then they prayed and said, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Thoughts? Were the apostles in error to determine God's will through casting lots?

They were expecting a physical kingdom of God so they had to have 12 apostles to fulfill what Jesus promised them in Matthew 19:28, so the decision to pick Matthias was correct.

But once it was clear that the Jewish nation rejected Jesus with Stephen's stoning, James one of the 12 was executed in Acts 12 further confirmed that Gospel of the Kingdom has been temporarily put aside.

Jesus then saved Saul to deliver a new gospel to the Gentiles, and the Jews.

 

[bling]

They were expecting a physical kingdom of God so they had to have 12 apostles to fulfill what Jesus promised them in Matthew 19:28, so the decision to pick Matthias was correct.

But once it was clear that the Jewish nation rejected Jesus with Stephen's stoning, James one of the 12 was executed in Acts 12 further confirmed that Gospel of the Kingdom has been temporarily put aside.

Jesus then saved Saul to deliver a new gospel to the Gentiles, and the Jews.

Matt. 19:28 does not force the 120 to select a replacement for Judas prior to the Spirit coming and if it was needed right away, why did Jesus not do it in the 40 days he was there? Look at my post 7.

 

[1213]

...
Thoughts? Were the apostles in error to determine God's will through casting lots?

I don’t think it was divination, because I think divination means “the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means”. They didn’t do that. They just didn’t know who they would choose and therefore casted lots.

 

[Guojing]

Matt. 19:28 does not force the 120 to select a replacement for Judas prior to the Spirit coming and if it was needed right away, why did Jesus not do it in the 40 days he was there? Look at my post 7.

Peter originally had the impression that the physical kingdom was coming very soon, that was why he asked Jesus about it in Acts 1:6 and he repeated that point in his preaching to the unbelieving Jews in Acts 2:20 and Acts 3:19-20.

The point is, if Peter believe that the Tribulation and the 2nd coming of Jesus is coming very soon, they need to have 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Of course, after he saw how the Jewish nation rejected Christ and how the Gentiles are being included in the salvation plan as a result, in Acts 10, and also the death of James, one of the Apostle in Acts 12, he had a change of mind in the timing, as can be seen in 2 Peter 3:9

 

[bling]

Peter originally had the impression that the physical kingdom was coming very soon, that was why he asked Jesus about it in Acts 1:6 and he repeated that point in his preaching to the unbelieving Jews in Acts 2:20 and Acts 3:19-20.

The point is, if Peter believe that the Tribulation and the 2nd coming of Jesus is coming very soon, they need to have 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Of course, after he saw how the Jewish nation rejected Christ and how the Gentiles are being included in the salvation plan as a result, in Acts 10, and also the death of James, one of the Apostle in Acts 12, he had a change of mind in the timing, as can be seen in 2 Peter 3:9

All your telling us is in support of: "why Peter could have made a mistake", he through Christ was coming soon, just adds to his obvious error.

 

[Guojing]

All your telling us is in support of: "why Peter could have made a mistake", he through Christ was coming soon, just adds to his obvious error.

No I am not saying that. We are speaking from hindsight but Peter is not omniscient like God. He could not have known that the Jewish nation would still reject Christ after God raised him from the dead.

If they had accepted him, he would have returned there and then, as acts 3 20 stated. Peter would have been vindicated there.

 

[bling]

No I am not saying that. We are speaking from hindsight but Peter is not omniscient like God. He could not have known that the Jewish nation would still reject Christ after God raised him from the dead.

If they had accepted him, he would have returned there and then, as acts 3 20 stated. Peter would have been vindicated there.

Christ had already left and told them the Spirit would come to be His replacement, before He returned.
Peter is suggesting "God has directed us at this time to get a replacement for Judas", but you and I are saying God at that time was not telling Peter and the 120 to select a replacement?

 

[Guojing]

Christ had already left and told them the Spirit would come to be His replacement, before He returned.
Peter is suggesting "God has directed us at this time to get a replacement for Judas", but you and I are saying God at that time was not telling Peter and the 120 to select a replacement?

God respects the free will of Man, even though he may be omniscient.

In Luke 13, the Jews have one more year to accept Jesus Christ after his earthly ministry ended. Jesus at the cross asked the Father to forgive the Jews because "they know not what they have done", so God agreed to give them a one year extension.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

If they did accept him during that one year, Peter and the other apostles would have needed to be 12 to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So the decision for Matthias was correct.

But of course, on hindsight, we now know that they still rejected him, with the stoning of Stephen about one year after Jesus went back to heaven.

 

[bling]

God respects the free will of Man, even though he may be omniscient.

In Luke 13, the Jews have one more year to accept Jesus Christ after his earthly ministry ended. Jesus at the cross asked the Father to forgive the Jews because "they know not what they have done", so God agreed to give them a one year extension.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

If they did accept him during that one year, Peter and the other apostles would have needed to be 12 to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So the decision for Matthias was correct.

But of course, on hindsight, we now know that they still rejected him, with the stoning of Stephen about one year after Jesus went back to heaven.

I fully agree: “God allows humans to make free will decisions even though God has perfect foreknowledge”, but as we have seen, God allows people to make mistakes (even sins), so we cannot tell from just the narrative and Luke’s style if Peter and the 120 made a mistake here?

The one more year for the Jews is an interesting possibility, but that still does not explain why this hugely importance of a replacement for Judas was not done in the forty days while Jesus was with them and had to be done before the Spirit came to them as Jesus’ replacement.

 

[Guojing]

I fully agree: “God allows humans to make free will decisions even though God has perfect foreknowledge”, but as we have seen, God allows people to make mistakes (even sins), so we cannot tell from just the narrative and Luke’s style if Peter and the 120 made a mistake here?

The one more year for the Jews is an interesting possibility, but that still does not explain why this hugely importance of a replacement for Judas was not done in the forty days while Jesus was with them and had to be done before the Spirit came to them as Jesus’ replacement.

Acts 2:20 made it clear that Peter, filled with the HS, made this prophecy

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

If indeed the Tribulation is coming very soon, they need to be 12, in order to judge the 12 tribes of Israel when Jesus return to Earth.

 

[bling]

Acts 2:20 made it clear that Peter, filled with the HS, made this prophecy

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

If indeed the Tribulation is coming very soon, they need to be 12, in order to judge the 12 tribes of Israel when Jesus return to Earth.

YES!!! but this comes after scripture tells us Acts 2: 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Which comes after Acts 1 and the "selection" by the group of Judas' replacement without waiting to have the spirit. Look at the difference in Peter's knowledge and use of the OT scripture.