Was the early church liturgical?

[Leevo]

I am going to post this thread in other Christian Communities forums because I want the views from all sides. Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.


I am just wondering if the early church was liturgical or not? It doesn't seem to me that it was. What did the early church fathers do for worship? How did the apostles set up their church's? Can you give me evidence and cite your sources for your view?

 

[kit]

For one thing we know Jesus put some level of thought into his last Passover. He sent Apostles ahead to prepare. That tells us of the importance of liturgical observance. We know from the writings of the Church fathers in the first hundred years that worship was substantially what Qurbana/Mass/Divine Liturgy is today. The Didache lays out from the very earliest days of the Church how worship has occurred in the Christian Church. Paul admonishing women to cover their heads. requirements for deacons, priests, and bishops. Admonitions not to avoid the regular congregating.

Conversely what evidence is there that Christian worship wasn't always liturgical? I have never seen any evidence that Christian worship wasn't always liturgical.

 

[Cappadocious]

I am just wondering if the early church was liturgical or not?

We hold that it was.

It doesn't seem to me that it was.

Why?

I would say that the Old and New Testament, the writings of Ignatius of Antioch and the Didache, as well as what we know about Jewish meal practices and the Dura Europos house church all give us good reason to presume liturgical worship.

But any source can be construed as non-liturgical if enough force is given to it; even a copy of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The first Christians continued in the synagogues for a while, which is a liturgically-rich environment, and within a century or so we see ALL the churches following liturgical communities, so I can't imagine in between there being just informal worship settings? It's hard to imagine bishops so far apart in the second century from Alexandria to Rome to Jerusalem to Antioch and beyond all of a sudden becoming liturgical out of nowhere at the same time in a coordinated plan? I think the Church always was liturgical to some degree.

 

[E.C.]

To put it simply: Yes.

While I've never read or attended one, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which was written by the APOSTLE James, is said to last roughly six hours. I don't think any Evangelical can fathom worshiping the Lord for that long

 

[E.C.]

The first Christians continued in the synagogues for a while, which is a liturgically-rich environment, and within a century or so we see ALL the churches following liturgical communities, so I can't imagine in between there being just informal worship settings? It's hard to imagine bishops so far apart in the second century from Alexandria to Rome to Jerusalem to Antioch and beyond all of a sudden becoming liturgical out of nowhere at the same time in a coordinated plan? I think the Church always was liturgical to some degree.

Unfortunately due to the passage of time, wars, pillaging and the burning of stuff we may never know the extent of liturgical-ness.


There was a bishop for every city and for a time the bishop was the only one who could consecrate the gifts. It was the priests job to go to the outlying villages and distribute the gifts to the faithful. Eventually due to persecutions this changed. This being said though, I imagine that the Liturgy which involved the bishop vs. the priest being in town to give Communion may have been different. We may never know.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It shames this Orthodox boy to admit it, but I don't know that I could handle six hours, bro! LOL 2.5 on weekends taps me out already! ROFL

To put it simply: Yes.

While I've never read or attended one, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which was written by the APOSTLE James, is said to last roughly six hours. I don't think any Evangelical can fathom worshiping the Lord for that long

 

[kit]

I have watched the modern version on video. I suspect there is some hyperbole in the 6 hour figure. I would guess that what in the West is called Liturgy of the Word would have been less formalized. The teaching coming more like a class than ritualized reading. I gather originally a full communal meal wasn't in the fellowship hall after the Holy Meal. Eucharist started a full meal more like a Seder celebration. One ends up having a longer Liturgy than we celebrate today. More hours might not be as tough as we might think from the modern form.

 

[truefiction1]

This is talked about by Alexander Schmemann in "Introduction to Liturgical Theology".

 

[buzuxi02]

yes it was, thats why references to the Trinity and the few references to the divinity of Christ are all in the forms of benedictions and doxologies and hymns and creeds.
Benedictions and doxologies:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen(2Cor 13.14)

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude20-25)

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9.35)... For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.(Rom 11.36)

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.(1Tim 6.15-16)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.(Matt 6.13)

Christological Poems and hymns known and recited among the christians:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2.6-11)

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.(2Tim 2.11-13)

Creeds:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.(1 Tim 3.16)

Other Liturgical trinitarian and christological formulas:
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 20-21)...
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.(v25)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;(Titus 2.13)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes it was. The earliest writings of the Fathers concerning worship was liturgical. Plus, since Christianity came from Judaism, liturgy would have been the norm.

Christ worshipped liturgically, so why shouldn't we

 

[Leevo]

Thanks for all the replies. I haven't gotten as many from the Protestants. So far for me it stands that the early church was indeed liturgical. I have seen only two rebuttals from the Protestants and neither of them had evidence for their claim.

 

[kit]

I Don't wish to insult with this. Protestants in many cases reap the fruit of Christianity's liturgical heritage without knowing it or thinking they reject it. The days of the week and the church calendar. Christmas and Easter are inextricably linked to liturgy. Even in the Lowest of Protestant events singing is a ritualized part of the do.

 

[All4Christ]

I suggest reading Springtime of the Liturgy. It is a compilation of texts of the earliest liturgical hymns and texts traced from the Jewish and apostolic Christian church up through the late 300ADs.

 

[Wryetui]

I am going to post this thread in other Christian Communities forums because I want the views from all sides. Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.


I am just wondering if the early church was liturgical or not? It doesn't seem to me that it was. What did the early church fathers do for worship? How did the apostles set up their church's? Can you give me evidence and cite your sources for your view?

Clearly the early Church was liturgical. The most common liturgy used in the Orthodox Church it's called the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and He made it while he was a the patriarch of Constantinople, in the 4th century.

Not only that, but among that we have the Liturgy of St. James, the very apostle and "brother" of Jesus, so if that's not liturgical I don't know what, I think the apostles knew better.

 

[ArmyMatt]

plus Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and the Didache all describe the early worship as liturgical

 

[All4Christ]

plus Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and the Didache all describe the early worship as liturgical

Justin Martyr was an important resource for me in my research about the early church liturgical structure...definitely worth a read!

 

[E.C.]

The Coptic Liturgy was also written by St. Mark, yes, the Apostle.

 

[Wryetui]

Exactly, so it's a lie to say that early christianity wasn't liturgical since it developed on judaism and judaism was a liturgical religion, only the protestant reformation inserted these fallacies into the world (even if Luther's "mass" is liturgical).

 

[Nikti]

To put it simply: Yes.

While I've never read or attended one, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which was written by the APOSTLE James, is said to last roughly six hours. I don't think any Evangelical can fathom worshiping the Lord for that long

The monks on Mt Athos do Divine Liturgy for 8 hrs a day pretty amazing but I don't know if I could endure I struggle hard with 3hrs but I guess cause I've just discovered orthodoxy and it's still a shock that I have to stand for that long