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Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Somebody made a copy by using their hand, and ink.

    Are you now arguing with what is written in scripture in an attempt to make your viewpoint work?


    Daniel 9:2

    (ESV) in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    (ESV+) in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to R6the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    (Geneva) Euen in the first yeere of his reigne, I Daniel vnderstood by bookes the nomber of the yeeres, whereof the Lorde had spoken vnto Ieremiah the Prophet, that he would accomplish seuentie yeeres in the desolation of Ierusalem.

    (GW) In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from the Scriptures the number of years that Jerusalem would remain in ruins. The LORD had told the prophet Jeremiah that Jerusalem would remain in ruins for 70 years.

    (KJV) In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

    (KJV+) In the firstH259 yearH8141 of his reignH4427 IH589 DanielH1840 understoodH995 by booksH5612 the numberH4557 of the years,H8141 whereofH834 the wordH1697 of the LORDH3068 cameH1961 toH413 JeremiahH3414 the prophet,H5030 that he would accomplishH4390 seventyH7657 yearsH8141 in the desolationsH2723 of Jerusalem.H3389

    (NKJV) in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

    (YLT) in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, have understood by books the number of the years, (in that a word of Jehovah hath been unto Jeremiah the prophet,) concerning the fulfilling of the wastes of Jerusalem—seventy years;


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  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Okay, since you actually used the text of Daniel 9, I will agree that John had a hand written copy of the book of Jeremiah.

    The question still remains. Why did Gabriel intentionally not use the words "new covenant" in Daniel 9, even though the messiah would be cutoff?

    The answer is in the bible.

    And why did the disciples them not understand and hidden from them in Luke 18 ?

    31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

    33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

    34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The answer is in the Bible. The disciples may have not understood the New Covenant at one point in time, but they would understand it later and recorded it in scripture.

    I will say it again.
    Based on Hebrews 9:15, the Messiah's death can not be separated from the New Covenant.


    Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

    Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

    Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is not that they just didn't understand - but it was intentionally hidden from them - until after the resurrection.

    What do you think Jesus meant in Luke 24:44, "These are the words which I spake to you, while I was yet with you" after he appeared and met with the disciples after the resurrection?

    Jesus was referring back to what he had told them in Luke 18, but what he said in Luke 18 was hidden from them. Why was it hidden from them? The answer is in the bible.

    Jesus did not open their understanding until after the crucifixion and the resurrection. v45. Why? Why was their understanding closed aforehand?

    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

    47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you trying to say the appearance of the Messiah was also hidden from Daniel?


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  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    He came! It seems to me that futurists have completely missed the point. Daniel IS about Jesus's first advent.

    Douggg....have you heard the term "typology"?

    “The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia” (Dan. 10:13).
    In this passage (and throughout Daniel's prophecy), Michael, is a "type" of Christ. Daniel himself is also a symbol of Jesus (especially Daniel 6). They are symbols pointing to Jesus....the True Messiah.

    Daniel 12
    At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    Daniel 6
    The Plot against Daniel

    1Now it pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2and over them three administrators, including Daniel, to whom these satraps were accountable so that the king would not suffer loss. 3Soon, by his extraordinary spirit, Daniel distinguished himself among the administrators and satraps. So the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom.
    Getting your information from modern Jewish "end time" speakers and self-professed Christian futurists is going to lead you astray in trying to understand ancient Hebrew texts.

    ETA: what I just discovered is that in the KJV Daniel is given the term "prince" himself for the position King Darius has given him as second in rule to only the king.

    In this short video (about 8 minutes) N. T. Wright explains several chapters of Daniel very well (in my opinion):

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Ask God (pray about it). That is the only One who can answer that for you.

    We don't get the privilege of demanding that the biblical text bends to our beliefs. Instead.....we are supposed to bend our beliefs to be in alignment with the text.
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Look to see when the term "New Covenant" was first used. Perhaps it was an announcement meant for the audience present at that time (those who He was confirming the covenant with - "Daniel's people").
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  9. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Daniel was given privilege while in captivity.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Who is prince of the kingdom of Persia in that verse? A human being or an angel?
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Antichrist is going to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant, for the 7 year cycle as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, acting as the thought to be messiah by the Jews, Israel, Daniel's people.
     
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Dougg.....your argument is that Daniel 9 is about the Mosaic Covenant made on Sinai (is that really the covenant of "loving devotion"?)......but it doesn't state that in the text either:

    Daniel 9
    4And I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed, “O, Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His commandments, 5we have sinned and done wrong. We have acted wickedly and rebelled. We have turned away from Your commandments and ordinances. 6We have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, leaders, and fathers, and to all the people of the land.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The arrival of the messiah and him cutoff is part of the prophecy in Daniel 9. The messiah rising from the dead on the third day is not in Daniel 9. And it was not understood by the disciples even though Jesus said all that was going to happen in Luke 18. It was hide from their understanding. Why?

    Why did Gabriel intentionally not mention the new covenant in Daniel 9, nor that the messiah would rise from the dead on the third day?

    The answer is the same for both cases - and is in the bible.
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    True.

    Do you not agree that is fulfilled?
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 70th week is future. it will begin by the prince who shall come, the Antichrist confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle, as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

    The Antichrist will be the little horn person coming from north and west of Israel into the middle east with a strong army. The little horn person, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, the 2300 days, the little horn destroyed when he stands up against the Prince of princes Jesus. That vision is time of the end. And is the vision both Daniel and Gabriel referred to in Daniel 9:21-24.
     
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Jesus explained this to His disciples:

    Luke 24
    21But we were hoping He was the One who would redeem Israel. And besides all this, it is the third day since these things took place.22Furthermore, some of our women astounded us. They were at the tomb early this morning, 23but they did not find His body. They came and told us they had seen a vision of angels, who said that Jesus was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had described. But Him they did not see.”25Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Why do you ignore the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 found in Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Hebrews 10:16-18?

    Why do you ignore the connection between the Messiah's death and the New Covenant in Hebrews 9:15?

    Why do you keep trying to insist the New Covenant scriptures must refer to the resurrection, when none of the passages containing the term "new covenant" also refer to the resurrection?

    .
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I agree that the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem and being cutoff has been fulfilled. The prophecy did not prophesy the beginning of Jesus's ministry.

    Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah in John 12:12-15, hailed as the messiah King of Israel, by his followers.

    4 days later he was crucified, by plot of the religious leaders who bribed Judas to betray Jesus, to have Jesus arrested when there were no crowds around.
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    The first century Jews (including Jesus's disciples) did tie the redemption of Israel of Messiah to the Resurrection.

    John 11:24
    Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

    That's what was promised all throughout the ancient Hebrew Scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    It did.

    The "hope of Israel" was a long-awaited hope of their coming Messiah to give them relief from occupation of other kings (they wanted to be ruled by their One True King). Remember @Christian Gedge's timeline?

    Daniel 12 (and other prophecies) also pointed to an eternal freedom from sin and death that Messiah would bring (as opposed to the temporary relief that animal sacrifices offered). That's known as the exodus from the bondage of sin and death (the exodus from Egypt was a symbol of this second exodus).
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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