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Was Sodom's sin, "hospitality"?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by jseek21, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. jseek21

    jseek21 Radical Biblicalist

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    Certain theologians these days believe that Sodom and Gommorah's sin was that they were not hospitible. They accept homosexuality as biblical. Do you believe this?

    If you ask me, they were the most hospitible people in the bible! Think about it, these people came to Sodom and Gommorah and men young and old from every village came to meet them. hey, and the housekeeper even offered his neighbors his two virgin daughters! If that's not hospitality what is? Yet they went above and beyond and wanted these men sexually.

    GROUND RULESM FOR THIS THREAD:
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    We are not bashing homosexuals, or being hateful, yet pointing out possible falsehood, error, and conviction of sin is allowed.
    God's Word is the final authority.
    Stay within the forum rules.
     
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  2. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Hospitality gone to new lengths I would say :D

    According to the Bible, I beleive homosexuality to be sin.
     
  3. fragmentsofdreams

    fragmentsofdreams Critical loyalist

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    Sodom sinned against hospitality. Lot invited the messengers of the Lord to stay in his home. When they accepted his invitation, Lot became obligated to care for and protect his guests. That night, the men of Sodom came to Lot's house in order to show their dominance over the foreigners. Because Lot was required to protect his guests, he pleaded to his neighbors for them to reconsider and offered them his virgin daughters in hope of changing their minds. However, the men of Sodom had no need to show their dominance over a pair of women because women were considered below men in social status. Their desire to show dominance over guests within their city was extremely inhospitable.
     
  4. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    These are two very separate questions. Many people who consider homosexuality to be sinful based on other passages still think that the Sodom and Gomorrah story has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    There are several references elsewhere in the Bible to the sins of Sodom; in no case is it "gay sex". Hospitality was a big deal.

    To better understand the story in Genesis 19 about Lot and the angels, consider two things:

    1. How does this relate to the story in Judges 19? Were those people being upheld as an example of morality?
    2. If the angels had appeared as women, not men, do you think God would have approved of people gang-raping them?

    I think it's pretty clear that the problem here isn't one of sexual orientation.
     
  5. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    GE19:4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have SEX with them."

    Sex means Sex!  Since they were all men it would have been homosexual sex.  And yes homosexual sex is a sin!

    It is amazing what lengths people will go to in an effort to say that the Bible doesn't say what it plainly says.  Don't fall for this trick of satan.
     
  6. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Terri, have you read Judges 19?

    That one's about heterosexual sex, but the story is nearly identical. Do you think the message in Judges 19 is "go ahead, there's nothing wrong with this"?

    The question here isn't "is homosexual sex sinful". It's "what were the sins of Sodom that angred God", and I think the Bible's pretty clear on it being mostly a question of inhospitality and lack of charity.
     
  7. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    That is ridiculous!

     

     
     
  8. EPHRIAM777

    EPHRIAM777 A REAL NICE GUY..!

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  9. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    So, which part is ridiculous? Isaiah? Ezekiel? Christ?

    All three of them refer to Sodom primarily in terms of hospitality.

    It's not as if the Bible doesn't have a fair number of references back to Sodom, and they're always in contexts of hospitality, or charity.

    It's worth giving it a quick read, and looking at what examples are focused on time and time again in showing the immorality of Sodom.

    I don't think you fully understand the scope of "hospitality" in the time when the Sodom story was being written down for the first time. In much of the world, people raped strangers as a way of showing dominance; protecting your guests from this was considered a moral ideal by *many* religions and cultures in the area. This was a real and significant risk of travel. This makes "hospitality" in their context much more than "offering someone some cookies".
     
  10. EPHRIAM777

    EPHRIAM777 A REAL NICE GUY..!

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    Today at 04:31 PM fragmentsofdreams said t

    Sodom sinned against hospitality. Lot invited the messengers of the Lord to stay in his home. When they accepted his invitation, Lot became obligated to care for and protect his guests. That night, the men of Sodom came to Lot's house in order to show their dominance over the foreigners.



    Eph puzzled..ly asks....?

    Thats an intresting play on words..you have there...!

    ""Dominance"" .... in what way did they wish to show their dominance...?

    Playing baseball...?

    They were way better baseball players...?

    They "Dominated" all the other towns that were close by in the same league..?

    Intresting use of that word...!
     
  11. Jeffer

    Jeffer New Member

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    Hi, I thought I would post this verse, hope it helps.

     

    Ezekiel 16
    48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
    49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
    50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
     
  12. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Yup. And before anyone jumps on "abomination", that word refers to a great number of the Leviticus laws - we have no way of knowing which ones. If the people of Sodom had eaten shellfish, and never done anything else wrong, that part of the passage would be untouched.

    Note that "pride" is listed first in this one. I think Isaiah is the one who talks about the hospitality issue.
     
  13. Jeffer

    Jeffer New Member

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    Hi seebs, how are you refering Judges 19 to Sodom?
     
  14. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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  15. Jeffer

    Jeffer New Member

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    Genesis 13:13
    But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

    Jude 1:7
    Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

     

    Judges 19 speaks of  a Levite and his concubine.
     
  16. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    Jude1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    To say it was a lack of hospitality and charity is ridiculous!  :D

    I repeat:

    It is amazing what lengths people will go to in an effort to say that the Bible doesn't say what it plainly says.  Don't fall for this trick of satan.
     
  17. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Er, yeah. That says nothing about what their sins *were*.

    "heteros sarx", in the Greek. "Other flesh". Not "same flesh".

    One way to interpret this rationally would be to ponder the question of whether angels are unlike us.

    Yes.

    And Judges 19:22 or so is pretty much the same situation as the thing with Lot's house in Genesis 19.

    So, does this tell us that "all heterosexual sex is wrong", or that *something else* is wrong? Perhaps *RAPE*? I know it sounds wacky, but I have come to believe that God may think rape is
    wrong *no matter what genders are involved*.
     
  18. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    This is the third time you've refused to discuss Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Christ, all of whom said otherwise. We've even had the posts in this VERY THREAD.

    Maybe you're right. Maybe you know God's mind better than Ezekiel did; after all, Ezekiel wasn't even a Christian. And we can throw out Isaiah for the same reason. And hey, Christ only mentioned Sodom in passing, maybe He didn't really know anything about it, and He was just mistakenly using it as a symbol of inhospitality.

    However, on the off chance that Ezekiel might have been aware of something, let's look at what he said about this:

    Ezekiel 16:47-49
    47
    Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their
    abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast
    corrupted more than they in all thy ways.
    48
    As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor
    her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
    49
    Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of
    bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters,
    neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    Hmm. That's odd. It's almost as though pride is a bigger deal to God than whatever else Sodom did. In fact, Ezekiel points out that, while lacking the ritual abominations of Sodom, the Israelites are *MORE* corrupted! More corrupted how? Why, in pride, and laziness, and lack of charity.

    One could almost conclude that perhaps God is more concerned with lack of charity than with many other sins; this would explain why Christ preached about it constantly.

    But, hey, what do I know, I'm just reading the Bible.
     
  19. Live4Jesus

    Live4Jesus Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to assume that men and women see certain issues differently.

    perhaps if they were women, approached by a mob of gang rapers, they would change their minds...
     
  20. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    We finally agree! :p
     
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