Was Paul a heretic?

[Neostarwcc]

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

 

[Hammster]

One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that.

There’s a general misunderstanding of Matt 25 in that people assume that it’s the works that make people sheep or goats. The reality is that people are either sheep or goats, and the evidence of that is the works they do. So Matt 25 is descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[Dave G.]

It's only confusing and controversial if you never had any or accepted any dispensational bible teaching. If you know the ages and their purposes it should clear it all up. But people won't embrace it because they are stuck in tradition and the old Jewish programs are dragged into our church age the age of grace.

 

[Romans 8]

Romans 4:4,5 do not conclude that


Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

4:4 says work, no mention of faith in there.
4:5 says no work, only faith is counted

In other parts of the bible this point is further clarified that although faith is what saves you, your faith is displayed by your works. In other words, if you are born again and the Holy Spirit works through you, you will produce good fruit because your roots are of God.

 

[timewerx]

One thing is true. Even Peter said in the Bible that some of Paul's teachings/writings are difficult to understand that some have tried to distort (misinterpret either by ignorance or deliberately). 2 Peter 3:16

If even Peter admits to finding some of Paul's teachings difficult to understand, how much more we might find them difficult to understand?

Peter had the advantage of experiencing the culture of that period, thus, having the right cultural context. We don't, and that makes it worse for us.

It is a fact that the major theological differences between denominations are centered in Paul's teachings. This is substantial proof that the majority have misinterpreted Paul's teachings.

I'd caution myself against Christians who claim to find it easy to understand Paul's writings when they could not bring up any valid argument why denominations different from theirs interpret Paul's teachings differently.

And if you approach another denomination, they will make the same useless reasoning (we are right, everyone else is wrong argument).

 

[Dave G.]

What did Jesus say about the law, it's in Matthew 22:37-40. And Paul said we don't forget the law but it's placed in our hearts. Put the two together.

 

[Neostarwcc]

There’s a general misunderstanding of Matt 25 in that people assume that it’s the works that make people sheep or goats. The reality is that people are either sheep or goats, and the evidence of that is the works they do. So Matt 25 is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I agree with you. Jesus was saying that a persons faith will be shown by their works and not by their works themselves. A true born again Christian will have works. But what about Paul's statement of "A person who does not work is still saved." surely he doesn't believe that because in Ephesians 2:8-9 he states that people are not saved BY their works but yet they still SHOULD do the works that God sent them to do.

 

[timewerx]

If you know the ages and their purposes it should clear it all up. But people won't embrace it because they are stuck in tradition and the old Jewish programs are dragged into our church age the age of grace.

That would certainly help give things with much great clarity and I agree with the bolded text.

However, note that even Peter who lived the same time and period as Paul also found some of Paul's writings difficult to understand in 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Dave G.]

One thing is true. Even Peter said in the Bible that some of Paul's teachings/writings are difficult to understand that some have tried to distort (misinterpret either by ignorance or deliberately). 2 Peter 3:16

If even Peter admits to finding some of Paul's teachings difficult to understand, how much more we might find them difficult to understand?

Peter had the advantage of experiencing the culture of that period, thus, having the right cultural context. We don't, and that makes it worse for us.

It is a fact that the major theological differences between denominations are centered in Paul's teachings. This is substantial proof that the majority have misinterpreted Paul's teachings.

I'd caution myself against Christians who claim to find it easy to understand Paul's writings when they could not bring up any valid argument why denominations different from theirs interpret Paul's teachings differently.

And if you approach another denomination, they will make the same useless reasoning (we are right, everyone else is wrong argument).

Yes, in fact at first Peter was not willing to accept Paul's teachings but that changes if I remember correctly before the end of the book of Acts after the two of them met and had a heart to heart...

 

[timewerx]

What did Jesus say about the law, it's in Matthew 22:37-40. And Paul said we don't forget the law but it's placed in our hearts. Put the two together.

This is why it's very important to read and understand everything in the Bible. Little learning is always a dangerous thing.

Yes, Paul apparently "contradicts" his own statements in his other teachings. That's why it's very important to read and understand everything (and not only remember what you like to hear as many Christians do).

And Peter made it clear, Paul's teachings are difficult in some parts which the ignorant misinterpret....2 Peter 3:16.

What Peter means is Paul's writings are not for those who are lazy in their Bible study which disturbingly, are most Christians.

It's not surprising that Christianity is so divided today and we have so many issues in the church like sexual abuse. It's very clear based on facts / proofs, many of these issues have resulted to misinterpretation (out of context) of Paul's teachings.

 

[_Dave_]

The sheep and goats judgment is post-tribulational. Jesus is judging those who survived the Great Tribulation on how they treated those saved during the tribulation.

Sheep=Tribulation saved
Goats=Unreprentant sinners who persecuted the saved.

Much confusion and false doctrines arise from a misunderstanding of this important passage.

 

[timewerx]

Yes, in fact at first Peter was not willing to accept Paul's teachings but that changes if I remember correctly before the end of the book of Acts after the two of them met and had a heart to heart...

If Peter had doubts initially, ironically, it may not sound right if we didn't have any issues understanding Paul's teachings since we barely knew the period, let alone, experienced it.

Perhaps, those are the ones Peter referred to as ignorant? The most disturbing fact is that we allowed these people to lead our churches! Is perhaps why the church is so messed up today?

 

[straykat]

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

No, the people who think he's simply talking about "works" are the heretics. Paul gives plenty of instruction on ethics, and even recommends excommunication for a man in sexual sin. When he says "works", he meant works of the Old Covenant that got in the way of the brotherhood of Jews and Gentiles under Christ. Things that symbolized separation, such as diet or circumcision.

 

[Halbhh]

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

Paul is writing to Jews that were used to legalism, to achieving righteousness in their own eyes, by their own works -- which is not the way (and also not "the way, the truth, the life").

So, instead of piecemeal verses from Paul then, we need the best summary passage, and that's likely to be Ephesians 2:1-10
(or even better is a full epistle as a whole, as Paul meant it to be heard)

Paul is trying to get across to them that they really are not creating their own righteousness, achieving their own righteousness, to help them avoid the deadly, deadly error of the Pharisees, and learn what they profoundly need, and need to fall into, come to, surrender to, be rescued by -- Amazing Grace, our total need for being reborn through Christ.

(in the more clear NIV: Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:1-10 - New International Version)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

I think there’s a difference between being justified (made right with God) and abiding and enduring to the end to receive salvation. Paul is saying a person is made right with God by faith. Jesus is saying we must bear fruit otherwise we are not abiding in Him John 15 which is an explanation to Matthew 25:31-46. It only doesn’t add up if someone believes in eternal security which wasn’t taught in the apostolic churches. Romans 11 Paul says branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again. Ephesians 5 Paul warns children of God of receiving God’s wrath intended for the sons of disobedience. And of course John 15 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of not bearing fruit and not abiding in Christ. The consequences which result in loss of salvation. James 2:14-26 he mentions two types of faith. He mentions a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith.

 

[Dave G.]

If Peter had doubts initially, ironically, it may not sound right if we didn't have any issues understanding Paul's teachings since we barely knew the period, let alone, experienced it.

Perhaps, those are the ones Peter referred to as ignorant? The most disturbing fact is that we allowed these people to lead our churches! Is perhaps why the church is so messed up today?

You must be referring to organized religion today. I think we are in a time where God is ready to separate the remnant, in fact may be doing it already. Those who really have Jesus in their hearts. That would be The Church The Body of Christ. And the pomp hits the floors and pillars crumble in buildings left behind as people with empty hearts for Christ wonder why.

 

[Dave G.]

If that time is not here it's coming, probably soon.

 

[eleos1954]

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

Need to define what works are. What are works?

 

[JohnB445]

The ones who disagree with Paul just don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

They get their arguments from Muslims. to try to discredit Paul.

 

[Neostarwcc]

The ones who disagree with Paul just don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

They get their arguments from Muslims. to try to discredit Paul.

Maybe. But they do raise some good points and its hard to argue with them.