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Was Miller a False Prophet/Teacher?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by FaithfulPilgrim, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    I was once Roman Catholic, born and raised, many years in. I am now Seventh-day Adventist. Therefore any question about either [and other religions, since I personally study these things], you may ask me.

    As for the Prophecies, I will document thoroughly from scripture and history, to any who desire. I am ready, please be prepared to answer with a thus saith the Lord.

    Jesus never said that mankind would not ever know the day and hour of His coming, but when we shall know after the close of human probation, when the Voice of God the Father speaks forth the day and hour from Heaven:

    What if I told you, that though you cannot know the exact "time" ["season"] yet, but that you can know the events that lead up to it?

    Also, the phrase, "But of that day and hour knoweth [to make known to others, see 1 Corinthians 2:2 KJB - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.; which is why Jesus could say "neither the Son" [Mark 13:32 KJB], as Jesus will not make it known, but leaves it to the Father to do] no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.", as stated by Jesus, does not say, that we will never know, and Jesus would not reveal it [though He knows it], since the Father Himself, has chosen, that after the close of probation, He will speak forth the time by His own voice, as that previous quotation reveals:

    Acts 1:7 KJB - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    We can know the events in their order:

    Matthew 24:32 KJB - Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    Matthew 24:33 KJB - So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Matthew 24:34 KJB - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    What generation? The last generation, that has seen all those things, most of which have already happened.

    The voice of the Father, announcing the day and hour after probation has closed:

    5. Voice of God announcing the hour; Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, 3:16; Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; John 12:29; 2 Peter 1:17-18; Revelation 14:2; &c

    {Great Controversy; Page 640}

    "... The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. ..." - Ellen G. White Writings

    Any may download the structure of Daniel and Revelation here - Link

    Any may download the great Study here on the Michael the Archangel, The Character that will Stand in the Last Day - Link


    William Miller understood these things to a certain degree, which is why he was hesitant at first on any specific dates, and had more of a broad range of several years to begin with, but as knowledge increased the window narrowed.

    I will also answer the Ellen G White vision of the "Food for Worms" 1856, which has not failed, but is yet to come, because those who read it, read it without knowledge of the scripture [KJB], and where she is quoting from, or even what it means, therefore, as it is written:

    Habakkuk 2:3 KJB - For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.​

    You might say how so? Aren't they all dead? And thus we find our first mistake by those who read sloppily ...

    William Miller, a Baptist preacher [before being dropped from membership, as others were in those days, as Ellen Harmon and her family were from the Methodists, for believing in the near Advent of Jesus Christ, etc], who, during his study of the prophecies of the Bible, came across the passages of Daniel 8:13,14,26.

    Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Daniel 8:26 KJB - And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.​

    This 2,300 evening/mornings [like in Genesis, evening and morning is a single day, a day in prophecy is a yer, Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34 KJB, etc], but used in prophecy, signify 2,300 years, beginning sometime [according to Daniel 8 KJB] in the Medo-Persian reign, in which "the vision" shown, "the Ram", which is given exact numbers to work with in Daniel 9-12 KJB.

    William Miller after many years, finally, by a vow to God, began to preach after a providence was opened unto him to do so. He had a rough estimate, not an exact date at first.

    It was Samuel Sheffield Snow [S. S. Snow of the seventh month movement within the greater Miller/Adventists movement] that came to the October 22, 1844 date based upon the Karite [Bible, Abib moon] reckoning, rather than the Hillel II rabinical fixed reckoning. Any may see S. S. Snow's calculation on the E G White CD Rom, under section "Words of the Advent Pioneers", "PIONEER AUTHORS", author "Snow, Samuel Sheffield (1806-1890)", or may also be found at the EGWhite estate website here - The True Midnight Cry, vol. 1, no. 1 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    "... of A. D. 34. This was the termination of the seventy weeks. From that point, 1810 years remained to the end of the 2300 days. And from the 7th month of A. D. 34, 1810 years extend to the 7th month of A. D. 1844. {August 22, 1844 SSS, TRMC 3.1} ..." - PERIODICALs, "The True Midnight Cry, Volume 1 (partial) (August 1844); The True Midnight Cry, Vol. 1, No. 1 (August 22, 1844); August 22, 1844, The 2300 Days & The Seventy Weeks​

    see also S.S. Snow [Jubilee Standard, May 29, 1845, written after the Great Disappointment], shows his calculations on Daniel 8:13-14,26, see section "PROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY.—Continued" - The Jubilee Standard, vol. 1 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    Miller at first discounted this re-calculation [after the lesser disappointment, of 1843], but as more and more information came in, and the history checked, he accepted this timeframe, and the date of October 22, 1844, which date is arrived at through scriptural and historical chronology, beginning with the 7th Year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir in Ezra 7, see also Ezra 6:14, and "the commandment of God" and the three kings, Cyrus II the great [Ezra 1; 2 Chronicles 36], Darius I Hystaspes the Persian [Ezra 5-6], and Artaxerxes I the Great Longimanus/Machrocheir [Ezra 7:7-28; whose 7th Year, and the 3rd and complete decree, giving autonomy and death penalty back to Israel, was in 457 BC, fall], which ties into Daniel 9:24-27, "from the going forth of the commandment".

    Of course, Jesus did not come to earth at that date. The Great disappointment happened, even as it did in the past for the disciples/apostles. The Adventists had prophecy, and yet they misunderstood a key aspect, just as the disciples did [they were greatly sorrowful, but after a time, great joy returned, and Jesus prophesied both, see John 16:20; Luke 24:17; Revelation 10], and was not until Hiram Edson [walking in a field with O. R. L. Crosier] received an epiphany after prayer about what to do next with a group of those who understood the time of Daniel [for it is correct in all its aspects], but misunderstood the event. In Daniel 7, Jesus must first come to the Father, into the Most Holy Place, to finish the work of the Day of Atonement, before returning and blessing the people. It was when the duties of the Highpriest were better understood, and that Jesus must fulfill all things, and that there was an Heavenly Sanctuary, things clicked. More bible study followed, Hebrews and Reveltion began to open more, and people began to take heed.

    Here is somewhat helpful historical portrayal [though it doesn't really cover the main message of the Three Angels, of victory over sin, but is more on the human persons] for those who know nothing of this subject:



    www.pearltrees.com/awhn

    William Miller, did indeed write an apology, but one must read it very carefully. he doesn';t reject as much as people think he does, and those parts which he does, one must remember his bitter disappointment does color some of it. He will be in Heaven.

    What he said was [in regards what fractures took place after the Advent 7th month movement]:

    "... I have no confidence in any of the new theories that have grown out of that movement, viz., that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfilment of prophecy in any sense. ..." [Page 29]
    He was a little "disappointed" you see, and could not see past the Tomb of his misunderstanding in regards the event, rather than to what he thought was incorrect "time".

    Yet, in the same "apology" he states:

    "... The "woman," or mystical Babylon, I regard as the fallen church, that ruled by means of the kings of the earth; and all churches that have the papal spirit of formality, or persecution, are partaking of her abominations. ..." [Page 32]

    "... I have thus given a plain and simple statement of the manner of my arriving at the views I have inculcated, with a history of my course up to the present time. That I have been mistaken in the time, I freely confess; and I have no desire to defend my course any further than I have been actuated by pure motives, and it has resulted to God's glory. My mistakes and errors God, I trust, will forgive. I cannot, however, reproach myself for having preached definite time; for as I believe that whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning, the prophetic periods are as much a subject of investigation, as any other portion of the word. I therefore still feel that it was my duty to present all the evidence that was apparent to my mind; and were I now in the same circumstances, I should be compelled to act as I have done. I should not however have so done, had I seen that the time would pass by; but not knowing that it would, I feel even now more satisfaction in having warned my fellow men, than I should feel, were I conscious that I had believed them in danger, and had not raised my voice. How keen would have been my regret, had I refrained to present what in my soul I believed to be truth, and the result had proved that souls must perish through my neglect! I cannot therefore censure myself for having conscientiously performed what I believed to be my duty.

    But while I frankly acknowledge my disappointment in the exact time, I wish to enquire whether my teachings have been thereby materially affected. My view of exact time depended entirely upon the accuracy of chronology: of this I had no absolute demonstration; but as no evidence was presented to invalidate it, I deemed it my duty to rely on it as certain, until it should be disproved. Besides, I not only rested on received chronology, but I selected the earliest dates in the circle of a few years on which chronologers have relied for the date of the events from which to reckon, because I believed them to be best sustained, and because I wished to have my eye on the earliest time at which the Lord might be expected. Other chronologers had assigned later dates for the events from which I reckoned; and if they are correct, we are only brought into a circle of a few years, during which we may rationally look for the Lord's appearing. As the prophetic periods, counting from the dates from which I have reckoned, have not brought us to the end; and as I cannot tell the exact time that chronology may vary from my calculations, I can only live in continual expectation of the event. I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world. With respect to other features of my views, I can see no reason to change my belief. We are living under the last form of the divided fourth kingdom, which brings us to the end. The prophecies which were to be fulfilled previous to the end, have been so far fulfilled that I find nothing in them to delay the Lord's coming. The signs of the times thicken on every hand; and the prophetic periods I think must certainly have brought us into the neighborhood of the event. There is not a point in my belief in which I am not sustained by some one of the numerous writers who have opposed my views. Prof. Bush, the most gentlemanly of my opponents, admits that I am correct in the time, with the exception of the precise day or year; and this is all for which I contend. That the 70 weeks are 490 years, and the 1260 and 2300 days are so many years are admitted by Messrs Bush, Hinton and Jarvis. That the 2300 days and 70 weeks commence at the same time Prof. Bush does not deny. ...

    ... Mr. Morris admit that the legs of iron and fourth beast are Rome, and that the little horn of Daniel 7th is papacy. While Dr. Jarvis and Mr. Hinton admit that the exceeding great horn of Dan. 8th, is Rome. The literal resurrection of the body the end of the world and a personal coming of Christ have not been questioned by several who have written against me. Thus there is not a point for which I have contended, that has not been admitted by some of those who have written to disprove my opinions. I have candidly weighed the objections advanced against these views, but I have seen no arguments that were sustained by the scriptures, that in my opinion, invalidated my position. I cannot therefore conscientiously refrain from looking for my Lord; or from exhorting my fellow men as I have opportunity, to be in readiness for that great event. For my indiscretions and errors, I ask pardon; and all who have spoken evil of me without cause, I freely forgive. My labors are principally ended. I shall leave to my younger brethren the task of contending for the truth. Many years I toiled alone; God has now raised up those who will fill my place. I shall not cease to pray for the spread of Truth. ...

    ...WM. MILLER.
    Low Hampton, N. Y., August 1, 1845." [Page 33-36]

    Speaking of the great tribulation, which comes before the time of trouble such as never was:

    ... Afterwards, then follows several signs in the earth/heaven itself, namely, "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven ...", which is paralleled in several other verses, namely:

    [1,290, AD 508 unto AD 1798]
    Daniel 12:11 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

    [1,335, AD 508 unto AD 1843/44]
    Daniel 12:12 KJB - "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
    Revelation 14:13 KJB - "... Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth ..."

    [70 Weeks, 62 + 7 + 1 [1/2 + 1/2], 457 BC unto AD 27 [Baptism], unto AD 31 [Cross], unto AD 34 [Stephen], then the remaining 1810, unto AD 1843/44]
    Daniel 9:24-27 KJB - Whole ...

    [5 Anti-typical feast Months, AD 31-100, unto AD 1833/34, Day of Trumpets, from Pentecost; Leviticus 23; Woe 1, Woe 2 and Woe 3, encomapssing the whole 'Exodus', 'Wilderness' unto 'Canaan']
    Revelation 9:5 KJB - "... five months ..."
    Revelation 9:6 KJB - "... those days ..."
    Revelation 9:10 KJB - "... five months ..."

    [1,260, 42 months, time, times and 1/2 time; AD 538 unto AD 1798]
    Daniel 7:25 KJB - "... a time and times and the dividing of time." ["wear out the saints"]
    Daniel 12:7 KJB - "... a time, times, and a half ..." ["scatter the power of the holy people"]
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... the tribulation of those days ..." [reference to Daniel]
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "...that tribulation ..." [reference to Daniel]
    Luke 21:24 KJB - "... the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
    Revelation 6:11 KJB - "... killed as they were ..." [two groups, past and future, see Rev. 20:4 KJB]
    Revelation 11:2 KJB - "... given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
    Revelation 11:3 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threscroe days ..."
    Revelation 12:6 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
    Revelation 12:14 KJB - "... a time, and times, and a half a time ..." ["persectued", see vs 13]
    Revelation 13:5 KJB - " ... forty and two months." ["power" was given to "him" [1st [sea] Beast, Rev. 13]]

    [Great Lisbon Earthquake, AD 1755, November 1]

    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... a great earthquake ..."

    [Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19]
    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... the sun ... shall be dark ..."
    Joel 2:31 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... shall the sun be darkened ..."
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "... the sun shall be darkened ..."
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "And there shall be signs in the sun ..."
    Acts 2:20 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair ..."

    [Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19]
    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the moon shall be dark ..."
    Joel 2:31 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before the great and terrible day of the LORD come]
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light ..."
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light,"
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the moon ..."
    Acts 2:20 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before that great and notable day of the Lord come]]
    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the moon became as blood;"

    [Reign of Terror, French Revolution, AD 1793 unto AD 1797/8; 'spiritually Egypt and Sodom']
    Revelation 11:9 KJB - "... three days and an half ..."
    Revelation 11:11 KJB - "... after three days and a half ..."

    [Great Leonid Meteor Shower, AD 1833, November 13]
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the stars shall fall from heaven ..."
    Mark 13:25 KJB - "And the stars of heaven shall fall ..."
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the stars ..."
    Revelation 6:13 KJB - "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth ..."

    [Day of Atonement, AD 1844, October 22; 2,300 which began in 457 BC, Ezra 7, Daniel 9, etc ending in AD 1843/44]
    Daniel 8:14 KJB - "... Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
    Revelation 9:15 KJB - "... prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year ..." [Rev. 14:6-7; Leviticus 23:26-32; 1 Kings 8:2; Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc]
    Revelation 10:6 KJB - "... that there should be time no longer ..." [no more prophetic time as a test]

    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and upon earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;"

    Isaiah 13:7 KJB - "Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:"
    Isaiah 13:8 KJB - "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrow shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth ..."
    Luke 21:26 KJB - "Men's heart's failing them from fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth ..."

    Isaiah 13:10 KJB - "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."
    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the stars shall withdraw their shining:"
    Joel 3:15 KJB - "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

    [The Close of probation for mankind in receiving and assimilating the Everlasting Gospel]

    Daniel 12:1 KJB -"And at that time shall Michael stand up ... there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time ..."
    Luke 13:25 KJB - "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without ..."
    Revelation 10:7 KJB - "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished ..."
    Revelation 22:11 KJB - "He that is unjust, let him be unjest still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

    [7 Last plagues, Wrath of God poured out]
    Job 14:13 KJB - "... thy wrath ..."
    Revelation 11:18 KJB - "... and thy wrath is come ..." [Revelation 16:2-17 KJB]

    [Final Events]

    Jeremiah 25:30 KJB - "... The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."
    Joel 2:11 KJB - "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army ..."
    Joel 3:16 KJB - "The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, utter his voice from Jerusalem ..." [New Jerusalem in Heaven]

    Joel 3:16 KJB - "... and the heavens and the earth shall shake ..."
    Mark 13:25 KJB - "... and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
    Luke 21:26 KJB - "... for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
    Hebrews 12:26 KJB - "... I shake not the earth only, but also heaven:"

    1 Kings 18:44 KJB - "... ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand ..."
    Matthew 24:30 KJB - "And then shall the appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ..."

    Revelation 6:14 KJB - "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ..."

    Revelation 16:18 KJB - "... a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

    Revelation 6:14 KJB - "... and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
    Revelation 16:20 KJB - "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

    Matthew 24:30 KJB - "... and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
    Mark 13:26 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
    Luke 21:27 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and glory."
    Revelation 6:15 KJB - "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"​

    Here are others besides William Miller who understood these things, and I will jsut cite the ones on the 2,300, as I have many more on the other 1,260 [42 months, times, times and half a time, given 7 times in scripture [KJB], with an additional mention in Luke], 1,290, 1,335, 70 weeks, the 10 days of Revelation and the 3 1/2 days of Revelation 11:

    The 2300 Days of Daniel 8:14, from Non-Millerite, and Pre-Adventist Sources:

    This is just a few of the quotations, from a study I am presently doing, and have many other sources being considered at this time, and is still in progress.

    Church of Ireland; Irish Clergyman and Scientific Writer: William Hales (AD 8 April 1747 – AD 30 January 1831) on Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

    Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

    “... [page 11] 3. If now we count forward ... the prophetic division of the 1260 years ... and included perhaps in that specified by Daniel VIII, 13-14, as of consisting of "2300 [page 11-12] prophetic days, or years," will be closed; supposing it to commence with Daniel's "70 prophetic weeks," or 490 years ...

    ... And according to the still more sagacious conjecture, of the learned and worthy Layman - (and Irishman too, were I at liberty to divulge his name) - in a Comment on the Revelation, 8vo, 1787, Payne, reckoning the 70 weeks the former branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days - and the latter 2300 - 490 = 1810 ...”

    “... [page 76] (at the end of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, Dan. VIII. 14.) ...”

    “... [page 145] and the commencement of Daniel's 70 weeks, (forming the first branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, VIII. 14.) ...”

    “... [page 199] the amazing commentary, as it is the further illustration of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days in the preceeding chapter, Dan. VIII. ...”

    “... [page 206] the assumed commencement of the 70 weeks, and also of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days ...”

    “... [page 207] 26. And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the Anointed [Leader] "cut off" judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about AD 27 - "When he was beginning to be thirty years of age," and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about AD 31.

    27. During this one week, which ended about AD 34, (about the martyrdom of Stephan,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world. ...”

    “... [page 259]

    Grand Prophetic Period of 2300 days - 149

    First Division, 70 Weeks, or 490 years - 200

    The 7 Weeks - - - - - 205

    62 Weeks - - - - - - 207

    1 Weeks - - - - - 207,208

    Second Division, 1810 Years - - - .ib.

    1260 Days (Note a) - - - -8,63

    1290 Days - - - - - 34

    1335 Days - - - - - 35 ...” [The Inspector, or Select Literary Intelligence for the Vulgar; AD 1798 … [select pages], written in 1799] - The inspector, or Select literary intelligence


    Methodist: Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4,6; Daniel 7:25, 8:14,26, 9:24,25,27; Revelation 12:14, quoted in relevant part:

    Numbers 14:34:

    “... After the number of the days - The spies were forty days in searching the land, and the people who rebelled on their evil report are condemned to wander forty years in the wilderness! ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/numbers/14.htm

    Ezekiel 4:4:

    “... 4. The days signify years, a day for a year; during which they were to bear their iniquity, or the temporal punishment due to their sins. ...” - Ezekiel 4 Clarke's Commentary

    Ezekiel 4:6:

    Forty days - Reckon, says Archbishop Newcome, near fifteen years and six months in the reign of Manasseh, two years in that of Amon, three months in that of Jehoahaz, eleven years in that of Jehoiakim, three months and ten days in that of Jehoiachin, and eleven years in that of Zedekiah; and there arises a period of forty years, during which gross idolatry was practiced in the kingdom of Judah. ...” - Ezekiel 4 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 7:25:

    “... Until a time and times and the dividing of time - In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, … ) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.

    If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction. The end is probably not very distant; it has already been grievously shaken by the French. In 1798 the French republican army under General Berthier took possession of the city of Rome, and entirely superseded the whole papal power. This was a deadly wound, though at present it appears to be healed; but it is but skinned over, and a dreadful cicatrice remains. The Jesuits, not Jesus, are now the Church's doctors. ...” - Daniel 7 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 8:14:

    "Unto two thousand and three hundred days - Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. …" - Daniel 8 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 8:26:

    “... The vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true - That mentioned in Daniel 8:14.

    For it shall be for many days - Not less than two thousand three hundred years! ...” - Daniel 8 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 9:24,25,27:

    “... When thus supplicating God in behalf of Israel, the angel Gabriel is sent to inform him of the seventy prophetic weeks, or four hundred and ninety natural years ...

    ... [vs 24] Seventy weeks are determined - The Jews had Sabbatic years, Leviticus 25:8, by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years. The seventy weeks therefore here spoken of amount to four hundred and ninety years. ...

    ... [vs 25] And if we reckon back four hundred and ninety years, we shall find the time of the going forth of this command. ...

    ... Four hundred and ninety years, reckoned back ... the very month and year in which Ezra had his commission from Artaxerxes Longimanus, king of Persia, (see Ezra 7:9), to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. See the commission in Ezra 7:11-26 (note), and Prideaux'sConnexions, vol. 2 p.

    The above seventy weeks, or four hundred and ninety years, are divided ...

    I. Seven weeks, that is, forty-nine years.

    II.-Sixty-two weeks, that is, four hundred and thirty-four years.

    III. One week, that is, seven years. ...

    ... the first period of seven weeks ... forty-nine years ...

    From the above seven weeks the second period of sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years more, commences, at the end of which the prophecy says, Messiah the Prince should come, that is, seven weeks, or forty-nine years, should be allowed for the restoration of the Jewish state; from which time till the public entrance of the Messiah on the work of the ministry should be sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years, in all four hundred and eighty-three years.

    From the coming of our Lord, the third period is to be dated, viz., "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week," that is seven years, Daniel 9:27. ...

    ... These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks ...

    ... [vs 27] I have only to add that this mode of reckoning years and periods by weeks is not solely Jewish. Macrobius, in his book on Scipio's dream, has these remarkable words: Sed a sextausqueadseptimamseptimanam fit quidemdiminutio, sedocculta, et quae detrimentumsuumapertadefectione non prodat: ideononnullarumrerumpublicarum hic mosest, ut post sextamadmilitiamnemocogatur; Somn. Scip., lib. 1 c. , in fine. "From the sixth to the seventh week, there is a diminution of strength; but it is hidden, and does not manifest itself by any outward defect. Hence it was the custom in some republics not to oblige a man to go to the wars after the sixth week, i.e., after forty-two years of age." ...” - Daniel 9 Clarke's Commentary

    Revelation 12:14:

    "... It is said here that the period for which the woman should be nourished in the wilderness would be a time, times, and a half; consequently this period is the same with the twelve hundred and sixty days of Rev_12:6. ...

    ... by understanding a time to signify a year; times, two years; and half a time, half a year; i.e., three years and a half. And as each prophetic year contains three hundred and sixty days, so three years and a half will contain precisely twelve hundred and sixty days. The Apocalypse being highly symbolical, it is reasonable to expect that its periods of time will also be represented symbolically, that the prophecy may be homogeneous in all its parts. The Holy Spirit, when speaking of years symbolically, has invariably represented them by days, commanding, e. gr., the Prophet Ezekiel to lie upon his left side three hundred and ninety days, that it might be a sign or symbol of the house of Israel bearing their iniquity as many years; and forty days upon his right side, to represent to the house of Judah in a symbolical manner, that they should bear their iniquity forty years, The one thousand two hundred and threescore days, therefore, that the woman is fed in the wilderness, must be understood symbolically, and consequently denote as many natural years. ...

    ... The woman is nourished for one thousand two hundred and threescore years from the face of the serpent, …" - Revelation 12 Clarke's Commentary


    Methodist: Rev. Joseph Benson (AD 1749 – AD 1821) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4-6; Daniel 7:25, 8:13, 9:24,25,26,27; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

    Numbers 14:34:

    “... Numbers 14:34 Each day for a year — So there should have been forty years to come, but God was pleased mercifully to accept of the time past as a part of that time. ...” - Numbers 14 Benson Commentary

    Ezekiel 4:4-6:

    “... And lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days, &c. — From the days that I shall order thee to lie upon thy left side thou shalt understand how many years I have borne with their iniquity, for each day was to signify a year: see Ezekiel 4:6. Thou shalt bear their iniquity — Thou shalt, in the way of a sign or symbol, suffer for their iniquity, namely, in lying so long upon one side. Or, thou shalt pre-signify the punishment which they shall bear. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity — This verse explains the former: I have pointed out the number of years wherein apostate Israel sinned against me. According to the number of days, three hundred and ninety days — This number of years will take us back, with sufficient exactness, from the year in which Jerusalem was sacked by Nebuchadnezzar to the first year of Jeroboam’s reign, when national idolatry began in Israel.” — Bishop Newcome. Some, however, rather suppose that the years are meant which intervened between the falling of Solomon into idolatry, and the carrying away of the ten tribes by Shalmanezer, at which time they entirely ceased to be a nation or people of themselves, and were wholly dispersed and mixed with other nations. Thou shalt bear the iniquity of Judah forty daysSo many years there were from the time when King Josiah entered into a solemn covenant to serve and worship God, (from whence their future idolatry received a great aggravation,) to the destruction of the city and temple. I have appointed thee each day for a year — Days frequently stand for years in the prophetical accounts of time. ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/ezekiel/4.htm

    Daniel 7:25:

    "... And they shall be given, &c. — “A time, all agree, signifies a year; and a time, and times, and the dividing of time, or half a time, are three years and a half; and the ancient Jewish year, consisting of twelve months, and each month of thirty days, a time, and times, and half a time, or three years and a half, are reckoned in the Revelation 11:2-3; Revelation 12:6; Revelation 12:14, as equivalent to forty-two months, or twelve hundred and sixty days; and a day, in the style of the prophets, is a year; (see Ezekiel 4:4;) and it is confessed that the seventy weeks, in Daniel 9. are weeks of years, and consequently twelve hundred and sixty days are twelve hundred and sixty years. ... these twelve hundred and sixty years ... twelve hundred and sixty years ..." - Bishop Newton" - Daniel 7 Benson Commentary

    Daniel 8:13:

    “... It must, however, be remembered, that many interpreters understand these days in the same sense in which days are generally understood by this prophet, namely, for years; and thus refer the prophecy to antichrist, ... This will carry us on to a still distant time in the church of God, to the completion of that opposition to the church of Christ which has been wished for long since, when the sanctuary will be perfectly cleansed, and to which the twelve hundred ninety and thirteen hundred thirty-five years of chap. 12. must have a reference. Sir Isaac Newton, Obs., chap. 9., not only reckons the days to be years, but will have the horn to be Rome, and does not refer it at all to Antiochus; and in this he is followed, in a great measure, by Bishop Newton ...” - Daniel 8 Benson Commentary

    Daniel 9:24,25,26,27:

    “... [vs 24] Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks, &c. — Weeks not of days, but of years, or, seventy times seven years, that is, four hundred and ninety years, each day being accounted a year according to the prophetic way of reckoning, (see note on Daniel 7:25,) a way often used in Scripture, especially in reckoning the years of jubilee, which correspond with these numbers in Daniel: see Leviticus 25:8. See also Genesis 29:27, where, to fulfil her week, is explained by performing another seven years’ service for Rachel; and Numbers 14:34, where we read, that according to the number of the days which the spies employed in searching out the land of Canaan, even forty days, the Israelites were condemned to bear their iniquities, even forty years. Thus God says likewise to Ezekiel, contemporary with Daniel, I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days three hundred and ninety days. I have appointed thee EACH DAY FOR A YEAR. Nor was this mode of expression in use only among the Jews; for Varro, speaking of himself, says, he was entered into the twelfth week of his age, at the close of which he would have been eighty-four years old. In these instances, the days evidently denote solar years, which were in use throughout the Jewish history; so that there is no probability that the angel should here intend any such singularity, as counting by lunar years. ...

    ... [vs 25] The third decree, which was that of Artaxerxes Longimanus, recorded at large Ezra 7:12-26, “was of great solemnity and efficacy, importing no less than the restoration of the Jewish constitution, both civil and ecclesiastical, providing in the first place for the re-establishment of divine worship with becoming order and magnificence, exempting the priesthood from all taxes; then, for the civil government of the people, the institution of tribunals, and the administration of justice, according to the law of Moses. This decree answers to all the characters of the prophecy, the restoring of the constitution, the rebuilding of the city, and the chronological periods distinctly specified,” and is, no doubt, here chiefly intended. ...

    ... the archangel commences the seventy weeks, not from the actual rebuilding the walls and streets, but from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild them. So that the date of the first edict, not the work itself, is the epoch from whence begins the period of four hundred and ninety years. ...” — Apthorp. ...

    ... shall be seven weeks ... in forty-nine years ... the interval of forty-nine years ... ” — Dr. Apthorp. ...

    ... [vs 26] Daniel 9:26. After threescore and two weeks ... or four hundred and thirty- four years; ending with the sixty-ninth [prophetic] week, and with the commencing of our Lord’s ministry. ... For sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years, added to seven weeks, or forty-nine years, are equal to four hundred and eighty- three years. After which period, or in the last one week, containing seven years, the Messiah should be cut off. ..." — Dr. Apthorp.

    ... [vs 27] For one week — ... from his baptism. The first half week of Daniel is from the beginning of Christ’s first preaching, Mark 1:15, Repent ye, and believe the gospel ... in one week, or seven years ...” - Daniel 9 Benson Commentary

    Revelation 2:10:

    "... ten days — That is, a considerable time: for, as Lowman observes, It is not to be understood literally, which would have been a short time of affliction indeed, and hardly agreeable to such a description of that tribulation as this prophecy seems to have been intended to prepare the church for Bishop Newton supposes that these ten days mean ten years, according to the usual style of prophecy; and that the persecution of Dioclesian is referred to, which lasted that time, and was the greatest persecution that the primitive church ever endured, most grievously afflicting all the Asian, and indeed all the eastern churches. This persecution, he thinks, and none of the other general persecutions, answers the character here given, none of the others lasting so long as ten years. …" - Revelation 2 Benson Commentary

    Roman Catholic (Layman, Scientist): Arnold of Villanova (AD 1235 – AD 1313), on Daniel 8:14:

    Daniel 8:14: "... When he says 'two thousand three hundred days' it must be said that by days he understands years. This is clear through the explanation of the angel when he says that in the end the vision will be fulfilled, from which he gives it to be understood by clear expression that in that vision by days are understood years. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine, fol. 7 v, col. 2, line 34 to fol. 8 r, col. 1, line 2. "... It is not unaccustomed, in the Scripture of God, for days to under-stand years. Nay, it is certainly usual and frequent. Whence also the Spirit in Ezekiel testifies: 'A day for a year I have reckoned to you. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine,, fol. 8 r, col. 1, lines 14-20. As translated/quoted in Leroy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1; Page 750 " ... 'Up to the evening and the morning, two thousand three hundred days.' By a day, however, he understands a year. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 59 v, col. 2 to fol. 60 r, col. 2. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 752 " ... 'From the time when the continual sacrifice will have been taken away, and there will have been set up'—that is, up to the time when will be set up—`the abomination upon the desolation' namely, of the faithful people, 'a thousand two hundred and ninety days.' And here, just as above, by a day a year is understood, which is clear through what precedes, since it says 'And when the dispersion of the power of the holy people, all these things will be completed.' ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 61 r, col. 2, line 28 to fol. 61 v, col. 1, lin. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 753 " ... it is certain, as was clear above, that Daniel under the name of days gives us to understand years and not usual days ...” “... such an understanding agrees with the common concepts of men and the truth of Sacred Scripture commonly known. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 63 r, col. 1, lines 21-32. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 754-755 - http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/PFOF/PFOF1950-V01.pdf#view=fit
    Other, Scientist: Sir Isaac Newton (AD 25 December 1642 – AD 20 March 1727) Commentary on Daniel & Revelation; Daniel 8:14; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

    Daniel 8:14: "...[8] Daniel, one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel's days are years ...

    ... The Sanctuary and Host were trampled under foot 2300 days; and in Daniel's Prophecies days are put for years: but the profanation of the Temple in the reign of Antiochus did not last so many natural days. …" - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, the Apocalypse of St. John; Chapter IX - Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John Revelation 2:10:

    "... The tribulation of ten days can agree to no other persecution than that of Dioclesian, it being the only persecution which lasted ten years. …" - Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John Volume 2; Page 290; - Observations upon the prophecies of Daniel, and the apocalypse of St. John
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Now, speaking only for myself, and I mean no disrespect to you at all but I suspect many will agree with me..........

    You "MAY BE" 100% correct but I will never know because if you think that I am going to read such a long and inappropriate post of copied and pasted material my dear friend you have another think coming.
     
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear that, really. How long do you spend reading the Bible, watching educational material like a documentary, listening to a sermon? Do you just walk in to the church, hear that it is going to be at least an hour and turn around and walk out, and say, "Well, that was going to be too long ...", or open a Bible, and see you are at the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and say, "Over 50 chapters!, TLDR"?, or Psalms 119, and say, ""176 verses!, that's simply waaaay too much text! and say, "Wall-o-text" and walk off?, and go do something else?

    I am just asking, since people love to attack, and post all manner of half researched material, and accuse [I do not say that you did], but rarely take the time to consider the response. Therefore, I ask you, if not all at once, take a bit at a time, as some of it is just documented evidence, such as the latter portion on the others who also present that the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13,14,26 are years.

    The post is correct. I love truth.

    PS. I wrote all of it, except the citations, which were painstakingly formatted to be presentable. Each scripture [KJB] reference meticulously put into place.

    If you would like, for your own conscience, ask a question [1], since we do not want things to be too lengthy, and I will respond to it. Let's try again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    This was no false prediction, and it has not failed, but has yet to come to pass in fulfillment. Would you care to see from scripture [KJB], and look with me more closely at what was said, which will demonstrate this?

    Yes/no, please, thank you.

    Also, may I ask you, which website you got that particular quote from, since I recognize the format in which it is presented, I can guess its origins, but would like to hear from you on it.
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think that this is a accepted response?

    Now, just how many responses have you had to you post?????
    Does that in fact not suggest to you that a lot of people did not read it????

    Do you really believe in your own heart that what YOU think and post on an internet web site is equal to the inspired Word of God in which we should give YOUR comments as much time and diligence as we do the Word of God????

    Is THAT what you really want to say my friend? Isn't that the sin of PRIDE?

    I am not and did not dispute your comments. ALL I said was that it was way to lengthy for ME to give it consideration. Again, how many responses have you had posted?

    I personally have NO questions to ask you as I already said that your article was too long for ME to read. However, If YOU have a point that YOU would like to expound upon, why not just post that ONE topic and I will be more than happy to engage you.
     
  6. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    You seem really angry.
     
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry that you think that. NO ONE has suggested that to me.

    Maybe it is because YOU seem to be terribly arrogant and resented any advice given to you and you just could not reject the opportunity to say something that was not required.

    Your post #43 seemed to me to be an exercise in adhomine and elitism when all I did was say to you that most people will not read such LONG posts.

    It seems to me that you do not take advice very well as that was all it was. It was my opinion and you are welcome to ignore it completely and keep right on posting long comments.
     
  8. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    I will be the first to admit that I have the attention span of a fruit fly. As a result, lengthy posts here at CF get skimmed by me and I tend to respond to only one point made, if I respond at all.
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I am right there with you and that is exactly what I said to my dear friend about his long posts.

    I appreciate your comment!
     
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Was Miller a False Prophet/Teacher?

    ... therefore Miller was not a false prophet/teacher. He did the best with what light he had. If we judge him wrongly, then using the same standards how would they be applied to yourself first of all, and then the others in the scriptures [KJB]? How would we apply them to Abraham [multiple wives, concealed-truths], Moses [striking the rock], Elijah [fleeing for the hills before a crazy woman], Nathan [build it and they will come, if you want them to build it for you press one, wait David, God said by David it will not be done, but that it would be through your son], David [multiple wives, murder by intent, etc], Solomon [multiplied multiple wives, and a lot worse], Jonah [running the other way, etc], Peter and the other apostles [misunderstading the nature of the Kingdom of God, doubting a lot, fighting one another, striving for the greatest position], even James and John [the 'sons of Thunder', wanting to burn 'em down], John the Baptist [second guessing briefly], etc., etc.

    Luke 9:33 KJB - And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.​

    Many of those who prophesied or did things in the past did not always have the fulness of the understanding of what they foretold or did:

    Colossians 1:26 KJB - Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    Hebrews 11:8 KJB - By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    1 Peter 1:12 KJB - Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
    Consider the life of that godly man William Miller, in what was achieved through His obedience to God, to go and preach what he knew was right, even if he did not understnd it all -- One of the greatest revivals the world has ever seen [nothing rivaling it since ... yet ...]. The Great Disappointment God already knew would take place, and it would be "bitter" ... [Revelation 10:10 KJB], and had it sealed up [Revelation 10:3-4 KJB], for it was to be a test, to see who was loyal, or who merely moved from abject fear and persuasion by popularity [when Christ was in His silver slippers with the wind at His back]. The chaff was separated from the wheat, even as there is a shaking going on now throughout the world, and the greatest shaking about to come, Revelation 3:10; Revelation 17:12 KJB, the "hour" that is almost here, which exists in the "hour" of Revelation 14:6-7 KJB going on right now.
     
  11. KingdomLeast

    KingdomLeast Member

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    We need to keep in mind that Miller lived and died a Baptist, he believed in all the tenets of the Baptist church. His followers splintered off into various Adventist sects.

    The way I see it ... the scriptures define what a False Prophet is ....

    But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. - Jer. 18:20-22
    So, was William Miller or anyone else who have made predictions a false prophet because they made a prediction? No, because the Scriptures are clear that Jesus is going to return, and while it is true "no man knows the day or the hour", can it be said that the year can be known? Or rather that no man will EVER know?

    So if I say the Lord is going to return in 2025, and it doesn't happen am I a false prophet? No, I simply made a prediction based on the scriptural teaching of the Lord's second advent.

    It's no different today when many claim we are living the "last days", Christians have been claiming we are living in the last days for nearly 2,000 years. Is claiming we are a prophecy or a prediction?

    You decide.
     
  12. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I can weigh in on the issue with perfect confidence now. This morning at church we sang, "It is Well with My Soul." It all came clear in the second verse where it says, "the trump shall sound and the Lord will descend. . ."

    Now, that man of sin, Donald Trump, is sounding (tweeting) throughout the world, so it is quite obvious that the Lord will be descending imminently.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Not to be argumentative but that is exactly what I heard when Obama was elected.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Theologically, we have been in the "Last Days" since the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

    "Practically" What makes the prophecy of the Lord's 2nd Coming imminent today is May 14. 1948.
     
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said...…………..
    "So if I say the Lord is going to return in 2025, and it doesn't happen am I a false prophet? No, I simply made a prediction based on the scriptural teaching of the Lord's second advent."

    I have to disagree with that.

    Can we look around and see the "signs" and understand that the prophecies about the 2nd Coming are with us today? YES I think so.

    #1. IMO there are NO prophets today so the point is mute. We have the Bible, the completed Word of God so then there is no need for a man to proclaim what God has stated. We can TEACH and explain what God has said but He does not require a man to be a prophet today.

    #2.
    Can we say 2025 and it not happen and still be a prophet???? NO!

    That is because there is NO time date listed in the Scriptures. If anyone say 2025 is the date he is then adding to the Word of God which is strictly forbidden in Deut. 4:2...…..
    "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
     
  16. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the difference is in the name. Obama gave us "hope". Trump has given us, er, Trump.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not want to get political on the forum and I do not like to be in disagreement with you, but I am afraid I will have to on this.

    Now please do not misunderstand me, I am NOT a Trump fan. I did vote for him but only for one reason...……."Hillary Clinton"!

    But Obama may have promised Hope and change but the facts do not support that claim.

    Race relations began to turn south.
    Unemployment was 10% in 2010 and 3.9 % today.
    The Dow Johns stocks have doubled.
    He brought in same sex marriages.
    Eight states and the District of Columbia legalized marijuana for recreational purposes.
     
  18. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    I am with you, brother. I put "hope" in quotes because that is all Obama gave us and the hope quickly disappeared as he muddled his way through his term. I agree that Trump was a superior choice to his alternative. At least he is making good on many of his promises, to the applause of many and to the consternation of others.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, as far as for me, personally...…...again, please do not think I am arguing because I am not, but "I" knew that Trump was not a slick, smooth talking politician.

    He IMO has turned out to be exactly what he said he was...…"A deal maker".

    He has shown us that he is a BUSINESS MAN who has actually done what he said he was going to do so the fault is not with him but US.

    The difference I see is that he cannot keep his big mouth shut and his personal opinions to himself like Obama did and what we see and here from him is right out in the open.

    The economy is booming.
    Taxes are down.
    Unemployment is down.
    Personal income is up.
    GDP is up to 4.2% which is unheard of.
    Dow Jones has doubled.

    IF He could just keep his mouth shut I have a feeling that a lot more people would like him.

    The best thing IMO that could happen is for his advisors to take away his cell phone and throw it in the Potomac River.
     
  20. KingdomLeast

    KingdomLeast Member

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    The same argument can be said about claiming we are in the last days
     
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