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Was Judas a bishop?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Evangelion, Dec 16, 2002.

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  1. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    One of the Catholics here has claimed that Judas Iscariot was a bishop.

    What do people think of this... assertion?

    Is it Biblical? Is it credible? :cool:
     
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  2. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    It is a biblical fact that Judas was one of the twelve chosen by Christ.......&nbsp;some Catholics also beleive that Peter was the first Pope!&nbsp; :rolleyes:

    Luke 6:13-16, "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Yes,

    Judas was a bishop.

    Acts 1:20
    For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
     
  4. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    That is the principle upon which the decision was made to replace Judas, yes. But it doesn't prove that he was a bishop.

    After all, how could he have been? There were no churches in his day.
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    When did Judas die?&nbsp;

    1 Corinthians 15:3-5, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:"

    According to tradition, Judas died before the crucifixion and therefore, if this tradition was right, then here the Word of God should have written "eleven" instead of "twelve".

    Any thoughts?
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi Franklin.

    Are you excluding the apostle Matthias, who was with them from the early days of our Lord's ministry even unto his ascension? (Acts 1:21-23)

    I believe Paul was including Matthias.

    It also could be true that "the twelve" is the common designation for the apostolic college. Jesus appointed a number of 12 offices in his personal incarnational ministry, and that number "12" continues to have significance all on its own (Rev 21:14; Matt 19:28).

    GW
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Ev,

    The oversight of Israel did not begin with Jesus. Numerous offices existed in Israel to oversee the people, and these were ordained of God and had a succession of leaders who held the office. Peter shows us how the "bishopric" was even an office common to Israel in David's time (cf. Acts 1:20-21 to Ps 109:8).

    All of the apostles and appointed bishops of the first century held "offices," and offices are institutional by nature and continue on in form and structure beyond any individual.
     
  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi GW, This article might answer your questions about Matthias, it's written by Anastasios Kioulachoglou :


    Luke 6:13-16, "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."

    As it is evident from this passage, the original composition of the group of the twelve included Judas Iscariot. Many other passages in the gospels also witness that Judas Iscariot was "one of the twelve" (Matthew 26:14,47, Mark 14:10,43, Luke 22:3,47, John 6:71).

    Thus, whenever we read "the twelve" we should understand it as a term that denotes the group of the above twelve people, except if there is a change in the composition of this group. In this later case, when the reference is to events before the change the number "twelve" should be understood as the group of the above twelve men, while when the reference is to events after the change, the meaning has to be adjusted correspondingly. In our case, the event that the Word of God speaks about in I Corinthians 15:5 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his appearances that followed it. Therefore, the simple question that has to be asked is what was the composition of the group of the twelve at the time of the resurrection? Was Matthias numbered with the eleven at that time? The exact time and the process that was followed for the inclusion of Matthias in the group of the remaining eleven disciples is given in Acts 1:15-26. From this record we learn that sometime between the ascension and the day of Pentecost, Peter proposed the substitution of Judas by someone else. The candidates were two: the one was "Joseph called Barsabas" and the other was "Matthias." How the choice was made and who was chosen is described in Acts 1:24-26 Acts 1:24-26, "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Now, since only at that point Matthias was numbered with the eleven, this obviously means that he wasn't numbered before (the Greek word that is translated as "numbered" in the above passage is the verb sugkatapsephizo, which means "to be numbered with", "to be counted with" or "to be calculated with" and denotes the inclusion of something/someone into a particular group). Therefore, whenever we meet the expression the&nbsp;&nbsp;"twelve" and the reference is to events that happened before Acts 1:26 what is meant is the twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. On the other hand, when this expression refers to events that happened after the inclusion of Matthias then what is meant is the new composition of the group that excluded Judas and included Matthias. Bearing this in mind we should not have any problem to understand who are the twelve of I Corinthians 15. The corresponding passage refers to the appearance that happened before "Matthias was numbered with the eleven."

    Therefore, since at that time Matthias was not yet one of the twelve, the expression "by the twelve" of I Corinthians 15 refers to the usual twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. This does not mean that Matthias didn't see the resurrected Jesus. In fact, in his proposal given in Acts 1:15-23, Peter says:

    "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when he was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22).

    For Matthias to be proposed (Acts 1:23) it means that he fulfilled all these requirements. The fact that except of the twelve others also saw the resurrected Christ is also confirmed by the gospels (Luke 24:33-36) and by I Corinthians 15:6 that speaks for an appearance to "five hundred brethren." The point, therefore, is not whether Matthias was a witness of the resurrection for he certainly was. What is the point is whether at the time of the resurrection he was counted with the eleven. As we saw, he wasn't.

    Some claim that, even though Matthias was not an apostle at the time of Jesus' resurrection, he was an apostle at the time the book of Acts was written. Therefore, they referred to Matthias as an apostle for that reason. However, this is not supported anywhere in scripture.

    For example, scripture does not say that "Paul, an apostle of Christ, was consenting unto his (Steven, an apostle) death" in Acts 8:1. Nor does it say "Paul, an apostle of Christ, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison" in Acts 8:3. Scripture does not refer to Paul as an apostle of Christ at this point in time, because Paul was not ordained an apostle at the time he was persecting believers in Christ. Likweise, scripture does not say "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, an apostle of Christ, sitting at the receipt of custom" in Matthew 9:9. Why? Because Matthew was not ordained an apostle when he collected taxes for Caesar. Niether were Peter and Andrew called apostles of Christ when they were commercial fishermen (Matthew 4:18), even though they were all apostles at the time the gospels were written. The reason is because they were not apostles at this point in time. They were only referred to as apostles from the point in history that they were ordained as apostles. The same goes for Matthias, who was ordained an apostle of Christ after the resurrection of Jesus. Further evidence regarding the presence of Judas after the resurrection is given by the gospel records of two of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Franklin,

    Again, I think Paul may very well be using "the twelve" as a collective term for the apostolic group. It seems to me that 1 Cor 15:6 is a direct reference to the event found in Luke 24:33-38/Mark 16:14, where Jesus meets his apostles just after meeting Peter.

    However, I've read the article by that author and I just don't see how he has a strong case. Why should the author insist that 1 Cor 15:6 can only speak of the "composition of the group of the twelve at the time of the resurrection"? The author seems to insist that the truth is found only in knowing whether Matthias was an official member of the 12 at the time the ascension happened. Certainly, Paul wrote 1 Cor 15:6 in the 50s, and by that time "the twelve" had been a designation of the apostles that included Matthias for over 20 years by that time. So, certainly, Matthias had by that time been counted among "the twelve" 6x longer than Judas ever held his office.

    What's this have to do with whether or not Judas was a bishop?
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    GW, I just thought that since we are on the subject of Judas I would bring this bit of information to the discussion which has to do with what the scriptures really teach about&nbsp;Judas being among the original 12 &amp; when&nbsp;he&nbsp;died etc.&nbsp; I realize I might be getting slightly off the direct topic and if it was of any great importance as to weather Judas was a bishop or not, I believe God would have put in the scriptures for all of us to see.&nbsp; I believe it is more important that Christ chose Judas to be among the original twelve and if it was that important for Him, it should be important for us also.&nbsp; If I am missing the importance of the fact that Judas was a bishop or not, then show me where I am missing the point.&nbsp;Maybe I'll start a thread that deals with Judas in another light.&nbsp;In light of what the scripture teaches vs tradition.&nbsp;

    Have a good one bro

    FR
     
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Franklin,

    I wasn't at all suggesting that you're off topic. Apologies if it sounded that way. I just wasn't sure whether or not you were saying Judas was a bishop or not, and if that has some relationship to when he died.

    Thanks, and blessings!
     
  12. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +43
    Jehovahs Witness
    The appearance being mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:5 seems to be the one recorded in John 20:26-29, which involved Thomas. However, this refers to the apostles as a group and likely included Matthias.

    From among those who followed him as disciples, Jesus selected 12 apostles. (Matthew 10:2-5) Judas Iscariot was one of the 12, but he turned traitor, betrayed Jesus, and then hanged himself. (Matthew 26:20-25; 27:3-10) So at the time of Christ's death and resurrection, there were only 11 faithful apostles of the original 12. Jesus appeared to various disciples between his resurrection and ascension to heaven. Thereafter the apostles recognized the need to replace Judas. With divine guidance, Matthias was selected, and "he was reckoned along with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:6-26.

    I can understand why some have wondered why Paul would write that Jesus appeared to "the twelve," since at that time Judas was dead and Matthias had not yet been selected. Being specific, there were then only "eleven apostles" that had originally been designated and sent forth by Jesus. Luke 6:13-16.

    As mentioned by GW, it is normal to speak of a group collectively even if one member is absent. ("The board of directors decided . . . " "The body of elders met . . . ") So the term "the twelve" may well have been used in reference to the whole group of apostles, even if one or two were absent on an occasion. (Compare Acts 6:1-6.) When Jesus first appeared to the disciples in a locked room, "Thomas, one of the twelve, . . . was not with them." Eight days later he was present and had any uncertainty settled. (John 20:19-29) Though Matthias had not then been designated to replace Judas, he was a longtime disciple. (Acts 1:21, 22) Since he was closely associated with the original apostles and shortly thereafter was "reckoned along with" them, the retrospective comment about Jesus' appearance to "the twelve" likely included Matthias.
     
  13. Extirpated Wildlife

    Extirpated Wildlife Wanted: Room to Roam

    +34
    Protestant
    Paul is one of the 12 apostles
     
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