Was Jesus omniscient?

[cubinity]

And you agree.

If Jesus did not have the divine atribute of omniscience then he did empty out of it. How many other atributes he did empty out. Probably of all. Do you know of any atribute that hr did not empty out? Do you know of any divine atribute - even one - that Jesus kept?

No.
I agreed with someone else that He was not omniscient nor omnipotent.
I did not agree that He got that way by emptying.
However, I also didn't agree that He had a right to call Himself God.
One the other hand, you insisted that He not only had the right, but the moral responsibility (You said it would be a sin for Him to lie about it).
Why did He have that right? You argued that it was because He was, in fact, God.
But, how do you know He was God? How could anyone know He was God?
Well, those that believe He was God do so by point at attribute Jesus had that only God is supposed to have in their thinking, and they say, "See, because He has that attribute, He is God."
Otherwise, if Jesus and God had nothing in common, they'd have called Him a prophet, or a saint, or something.
They, and you, call Him God because you and they (and I) see attributes in Him that we attribute to God.
Otherwise, you have no logical reason for saying He is God.

 

[Goinheix]

I am saying that you did agree on that Jesus was not omniscience. The rest is a big confusion of yourself.
If you agree, as you did, that Jesus was not omniscient...how did it happens? If the theologist are right and kenosis is not the emptying of divine atributes; how is that Jesus had not the divine atribute of omniscience?
And againg...do you know of any - at least one - divine atribute in Jesus of Nazareth?

 

[cubinity]

I am saying that you did agree on that Jesus was not omniscience. The rest is a big confusion of yourself.
If you agree, as you did, that Jesus was not omniscient...how did it happens? If the theologist are right and kenosis is not the emptying of divine atributes; how is that Jesus had not the divine atribute of omniscience?
And againg...do you know of any - at least one - divine atribute in Jesus of Nazareth?

And again, it is only the attribute of one being to be able to rightfully call itself God in the tradition we are discussing, is it not? Which being? God! Thus, to be able to rightfully call one's self God is, in fact, by definition, a divine attribute.

Unless, of course, you have a different definition for attribute than the rest of us. If so, you might want to clear that up.

As far as Jesus not being omniscient, it seems to me you think He was omniscient at some point and then somehow ceased to be omniscient. I disagree. I don't think He was ever omniscient, thus the "emptying" issue you are going on about is of no concern to me, anyway.

 

[Goinheix]

And again, it is only the attribute of one being to be able to rightfully call itself God in the tradition we are discussing, is it not? Which being? God! Thus, to be able to rightfully call one's self God is, in fact, by definition, a divine attribute.

Unless, of course, you have a different definition for attribute than the rest of us. If so, you might want to clear that up.

The right to call himselg God is not an atribute og God. There are many list of the atributes of God, and in no one it is included the right to cailm to be God. Tradition dont conceder the right to be called God a divine atribute.

 

[Goinheix]

As far as Jesus not being omniscient, it seems to me you think He was omniscient at some point and then somehow ceased to be omniscient. I disagree. I don't think He was ever omniscient, thus the "emptying" issue you are going on about is of no concern to me, anyway.

Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of God the Son. God the Son was omniscient until he emptied out all his atributes, including omniscience. God the Son was omnioscient before kenosis, and was not omnioscient since he incarnate as Jesus.

 

[cubinity]

Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of God the Son. God the Son was omniscient until he emptied out all his atributes, including omniscience. God the Son was omnioscient before kenosis, and was not omnioscient since he incarnate as Jesus.

According to...?

 

[cubinity]

The right to call himselg God is not an atribute og God. There are many list of the atributes of God, and in no one it is included the right to cailm to be God. Tradition dont conceder the right to be called God a divine atribute.

You speak of these lists as if they have flawless and divine authority themselves. Are you not capable of reading the Scriptures and identifying for yourself attributes of God?

Putting your lists aside for the moment, just basing this on the definition of the word, attribute, is it not only God who can rightfully claim to be God. Does that not make it a unique attribute of Him? Does that not then make it a divine attribute?

Seriously, I cannot be expected to be versed in whatever lists you ascribe to, but we do both have the Bible in common, and the Bible identifies that only God can rightfully call Himself God. Thus, by definition, calling one's self God rightfully is a divine attribute.

No?

 

[Goinheix]

According to...?

dont you think God the Son, being God is omniscient?

 

[Goinheix]

You speak of these lists as if they have flawless and divine authority themselves. Are you not capable of reading the Scriptures and identifying for yourself attributes of God?

Putting your lists aside for the moment, just basing this on the definition of the word, attribute, is it not only God who can rightfully claim to be God. Does that not make it a unique attribute of Him? Does that not then make it a divine attribute?

Seriously, I cannot be expected to be versed in whatever lists you ascribe to, but we do both have the Bible in common, and the Bible identifies that only God can rightfully call Himself God. Thus, by definition, calling one's self God rightfully is a divine attribute.

No?

I can not found the wrod "atribute" in my Bible. We can check out the dictionary or to check out the lists of atributes. Neither are inspired.

You want to go around and aroud avoiding the most important. Jesus of Nazareth was not omniscient. If Jesus was not omniscient he dont have that atribute. If he dont have that atribute, then he emptied out of it.

In fact, Jesus is not showing any divine atribute, other than being God; wich is not a atribute of God, but God himself. And clearly he didnt have the atribute of omnipresence or omnipotence either. Jesus did empty of the divine atributes; all of them; and absolutely.

 

[cubinity]

dont you think God the Son, being God is omniscient?

The text explicitly says He didn't know something. Why should I think differently? If I did think differently, would it really matter in light of the explicit statement in the text? I don't think so.

 

[cubinity]

I can not found the wrod "atribute" in my Bible. We can check out the dictionary or to check out the lists of atributes. Neither are inspired.

You want to go around and aroud avoiding the most important. Jesus of Nazareth was not omniscient. If Jesus was not omniscient he dont have that atribute. If he dont have that atribute, then he emptied out of it.

In fact, Jesus is not showing any divine atribute, other than being God; wich is not a atribute of God, but God himself. And clearly he didnt have the atribute of omnipresence or omnipotence either. Jesus did empty of the divine atributes; all of them; and absolutely.

If there is absolutely no quality (a synonym for "attribute" since I'm getting bored of this ignorant run-around, okay?) you find in Jesus that tells that He is God other than Him saying so, then why don't you believe every other whack-job who claims to be God? Serious, if you believe that Jesus and God have nothing in common, then why even believe He is God at all? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

There is no textual reason to believe Jesus was ever omniscient, and thus no reason to believe He emptied Himself of that quality.

 

[Goinheix]

If there is absolutely no quality (a synonym for "attribute" since I'm getting bored of this ignorant run-around, okay?) you find in Jesus that tells that He is God other than Him saying so, then why don't you believe every other whack-job who claims to be God? Serious, if you believe that Jesus and God have nothing in common, then why even believe He is God at all? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

There is no textual reason to believe Jesus was ever omniscient, and thus no reason to believe He emptied Himself of that quality.

Jesus is God. I never say that "Jesus and God have nothing in common"

Jesus is born in 6BC being not omniscient. Jesus was not omniscient from his very first second of existence. Is God the Son who did empty out of being omniscient. I ask you again: is God the Son omniscient?

 

[cubinity]

Jesus is God. I never say that "Jesus and God have nothing in common"

Jesus is born in 6BC being not omniscient. Jesus was not omniscient from his very first second of existence. Is God the Son who did empty out of being omniscient. I ask you again: is God the Son omniscient?

Read again the verse where Jesus explicitly states He doesn't know when He'll return, and you tell me if you get from His description of Himself whether He is just referring to His humanoid self or His eternal self. How does that soud?

When you say in English that two people do not have any of the same attributes, you are saying they have nothing in common. Maybe you didn't realize that.

 

[Goinheix]

Read again the verse where Jesus explicitly states He doesn't know when He'll return, and you tell me if you get from His description of Himself whether He is just referring to His humanoid self or His eternal self. How does that soud?
.

Jesus of Nazareth was not an humanoid but human. When Jesus of Nazareth told the disciples that he didnt know the time of his return he was human. There is not any question or doubt.

I can see that you keep saying that God the Son is not omniscient. Isnt him God?

 

[Goinheix]

When you say in English that two people do not have any of the same attributes, you are saying they have nothing in common. Maybe you didn't realize that.

In English I (Goinheix) am a Captain. In English we say that I have total and final authority over the ship. As Captain - always in English - I have many others atributes and prerogatives. But eventually, as today, I am home; and in English we say that non of those atributes are on my. Being at home I have no authority over any ship, or any other atribute as Captain. In English we say that Captain Goinheix and husband Goinheix have a lot in common, except for not having the atributes.

 

[cubinity]

Jesus of Nazareth was not an humanoid but human. When Jesus of Nazareth told the disciples that he didnt know the time of his return he was human. There is not any question or doubt.

I can see that you keep saying that God the Son is not omniscient. Isnt him God?

Are you asking me if Jesus is God? Really? Have I not repeatedly answered this question already!?

Now, I do keep saying that the Son of God was not omniscient because He personally said He did not know something.

I'm sorry, but I feel like you are hung up on semantics, and we are really more arguing about how define the terms we're using more than anything actually substantial about our theologies, and it's getting kind of bothersome in my honest opinion.

Let me see if I can summarize what you believe, and if I miss something or get something wrong, you can correct me. How does that sound?

You believe that Jesus, before He became human, had all of the attributes (qualities, characteristics, whatever) of God. Then, when He chose to become human (not humanoid, as that term obviously bothers you for some reason), He shed (got rid of, emptied, whatever) Himself of all of those attributes (again; qualities, characteristics, features, descriptors, whatever). Then, what, after rising again, maybe He put all those attributes back on somehow. Therefore, you can say that Jesus, the human (not humanoid) was not omniscient, even though the Jesus before and after being human (not humanoid) is/was omniscient.

Is that about it?

Great!

I disagree.

I find no Scriptural basis to claim that the Jesus before His human state and the Jesus after were or are omniscient. I find no Scripture basis for believing that Jesus ever possessed anything in common with the Father that He did not possess as a human. Therefore, I do not believe He shed anything to become human. I believe He is exactly the same, yesterday, today and forever, just as Paul describes in his letter to the Philippians.

I do see qualities of God in Jesus, and those qualities are what make me believe He is and was God.

 

[cubinity]

In English I (Goinheix) am a Captain. In English we say that I have total and final authority over the ship. As Captain - always in English - I have many others atributes and prerogatives. But eventually, as today, I am home; and in English we say that non of those atributes are on my. Being at home I have no authority over any ship, or any other atribute as Captain. In English we say that Captain Goinheix and husband Goinheix have a lot in common, except for not having the atributes.

Captain and husband are roles you play. You, in both roles, are hopefully the same person. It is the role that has the attribute of authority over the ship, not the man. In the English we speak out here where I live, we say that the Captain is noble, for example, in his authority over the ship because of the attributes of the man who is currently filling that role. The role is neutral, but the attributes the man brings with him to the role make him either good or bad.

The man has the authority that comes with the role because he is the man filling the role. However, that does not mean the attribute is uniquely the man's. It is the attribute of the role. That is why, when he leaves the ship and enters his role as a husband, he leaves the attribute with the ship, with the role. Because it was not an attribute of him, but of the role he was filling.

Furthermore, the attribute of being noble does not stay with the role of Captain, but goes with the man into his next role. He is just as noble a husband as he was a Captain. However, there is no guarantee the next Captain will lead nobly, as nobility was not an attribute of the role, but of the man filling it.

Does that make sense?

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of God the Son. God the Son was omniscient until he emptied out all his atributes, including omniscience. God the Son was omnioscient before kenosis, and was not omnioscient since he incarnate as Jesus.

Which attribute of God did Jesus demonstrate when he stated this?

20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you" (Matthew 11:20-24 NIV)

 

[Goinheix]

Which attribute of God did Jesus demonstrate when he stated this?

Non. Do you see any atribute of God on that passage? Please tell us.

 

[Goinheix]

Are you asking me if Jesus is God? Really? Have I not repeatedly answered this question already!?

Now, I do keep saying that the Son of God was not omniscient because He personally said He did not know something.

I'm sorry, but I feel like you are hung up on semantics, and we are really more arguing about how define the terms we're using more than anything actually substantial about our theologies, and it's getting kind of bothersome in my honest opinion.

.

The person doing constant references to semantic is not other than you. Is you refering on how you say this and that on English. Is you who refers to the dictionary meaning of "atribute". Is you who refers to "role paly" giving to the atributes anothers name.

Im am a Captain, even at home I am a Captain; only that while offboard I have not any captain atribute. Is like a Doctor; he continuas to Dactor while at home, or on holydays.

God the Son continues to be God the Son while on Earth as Jesus of Nazaret. Being Jesus was not a role game. If God the Son is actually God (he is) then necesarelly he was omniscient. As you say, if God the Son did not have the sames atributes of God; then - as you say - he has nothing in common with God. But God the Son did have all atributes of God; at least until he experimented kenosis for encarnation. Then God the Son as incarnated did have non of the divine atributes. God the Son is omniscient; but by kenosis he resigned to be omniscient, and Jesus, God the Son incarnated, was not oniscient.

You can found a long list of things that God the Son did not know. All of them correspond to the period in wich he was incarnated, emptied of the dinive atributes.