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Was Jesus in any way trying to show the futility of the OT Law covenant or obeying it perfectly...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Was Jesus in any way whatsoever trying to show the futility of the OT Law covenant or obeying or keeping it perfectly...?

    Or was He trying to lay that kind of "groundwork" to His all Jewish, well versed in the Law, audience at all...? maybe for apostles like Paul to expound upon later on, ect...

    I think it was a part of Jesus mission to His all Jewish, well versed in the (and indoctrinated into) anyway, His "all Jewish audience, well versed in the OC, OT written down "letter of the Law covenant" all Jewish audience or body of believers...

    I believe He was speaking to His all Jewish audience and that part of His mission was to show them the impossibility of keeping the commandments perpetually and perfectly in this life, and is why He said some of the things He said... About being perfect, ect... Keeping the commandments perfectly, ect...

    That it was a way of catching these Jewish men alive, (in their own cunning) and after they "got it" or if they ever "got it", then turning, or trying to turn them toward a true belief in true Christianity, and to truly believing in and following Him, or to or toward or out of, the OC, and into the NC...

    What do you think...?

    He said we have to be perfect, and showed us all just how difficult that was, (raised the bar on even the letter of the Law) Now, He either meant that, or He didn't mean it "that way" or the way in which He already knew most of us would assume it to be and mean and be taken, ect...

    So, what did He really mean...? That we have to be perfect, and absolutely perfect, or not...?

    Discuss...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  2. Guojing

    Guojing Member

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    Jesus was trying to show the Jews that they cannot rely on just the Law to get right with God. They have to show faith by believing that he is the Son of God too.

    So salvation during that time was Faith AND works.
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Faith and works of the Law...? Or your own work or works or self-effort of obedience or obeying that would somehow qualify or earn you the right or make you deserving of Salvation or going to Heaven...?

    Is that what Jesus meant or was trying to teach...?

    Or not...? Or was it "something else"...?

    Just what was it Jesus was trying to teach?, if it is faith and works, what was he trying to teach about the works part...? What kind of works...? Works of the Law...? Works belonging to your own self will or works or own self-effort, or exertion, ect...? And again, somehow earning it, or you making yourself deserving of it somehow...? is that what he was trying to teach...?

    If not, what was He trying to teach then...?

    And, so, do you pretty much agree that He was not teaching that you had to be "perfect", or at least perfect by your own making it so, ect...?

    Do you agree or disagree with that last part or not...? And if not, or if you do not, why...?

    And if you do not, how are we to be or be made perfect, if that is the standard, ect...? By our own "will", efforts, or "whatever"...? Or not...?

    God Bless!
     
  4. Guojing

    Guojing Member

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    The Book of Matthew is perhaps the clearest for this purpose, since it is written primarily to the Jews.

    Matt 5

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Throughout the 4 Gospels, and especially in Matthew, Jesus preached obedience to the Law, in addition to believing in him as the promised Messiah.
     
  5. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What Jesus did more than anything ... was to direct our attention to the spirit of the Law, rather than the letter of the Law. The spirit of the Law is Love, toward God and one's fellow man.

    The Law is a means to an end, which is Love, even in the Old Testament presentation.

    We can't be perfect, because we aren't God. But we can be loving children of God.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think he showed the true meaning of the Law. Law is not about judgment, it is about how to live well and not cause harm to others.
     
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When Jesus gave His Sermon on the Mount > He could have started off by saying whatsoever He pleased. And He started with how to be.

    How we are in our character is first. And the how to be things in this Sermon are a match with how Jesus is, I would say >

    poor in spirit

    meek

    pure in heart

    merciful

    So, He did not start with saying blessed are those who keep the Law.

    And being perfect has to do with how to love.
     
  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    If we go by what Don Cupitt or other biblical scholars have said, it's more like the former: Jesus doesn't see externalization of morality as sufficient to actually live a moral life- morality comes from within, from our own embodied experience of the world, from knowing ourselves and our own limitations. Jesus uses parables because he is trying to show morality comes from a sense of our humanity- not from a transcendent God. In some ways, this is similar to Nietzsche.

    Jesus never actually teaches this in the earliest Gospels. His actual teaching is that those who show love and compassion towards their neighbor, even if it's someone that isn't like them or even their enemies, are declared righteous before God. For Jesus, character counts: a bad tree does not produce good fruit. Jesus is looking for disciples, not mindless devotees.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Member

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    John 5 is an example of my point

    39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    41 I receive not honour from men.

    42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

    43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

    45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
     
  10. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Jesus was the perfect Jew.

    A Jew does not fulfill the law, if they do not have to.

    On the other hand, if a Jew says he will never have to (fulfill the law): it is expected that another Jew should consider repenting on his behalf (in principle).
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    So the Law does not show or indicate the standard of perfection, but/or/and, is the standard still perfection? Or not?

    God Bless!
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    The Gospel of John is a later theological work, many biblical scholars actually don't consider it a reliable record of what Jesus actually said. That's why I did not use it as evidence of what Jesus actually taught. John is what the early Church thought of Jesus as a person, that he was the "Light of the World" or the "Bread of Heaven". Which Jesus may have said perhaps, but the main Gospel of Jesus, and how he saw salvation, had a different emphasis from many modern Christians. He did not see the rightheous as an exclusive club (Matthew 8:11).
     
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perfection is still the standard, but ... we have CONNECTIONS.

    For us, it's not WHAT you do, but WHO you know ...
     
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