Was Jesus God?

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brotherjim

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<TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
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<TD vAlign=top>Dear Brother Outspoken,

You said:

[Me:]"I wasn't speaking of the condensed "Apostle's Creed" thingie that sits on the tables as you enter their church's doors, but what is taught in their seminaries and by their heirarchy."

[You:]And? they have things there for a reason. If the preachers and teachers are not teaching by it, then they are not in that denomination by beleive, but by location. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0>


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You still do not understand. The "Apostle's Creed," or similar summary, is not a full teaching on the Trinity. It's a condensed conveyance. It likely takes an entire semester's course, or great portion thereof, for a seminary or similar to theologically convey to its students their definition of the Trinity. Such courses, and their definitions, vary among Trinitarian Christian entities.

Whether or not those specifics, or portions thereof,&nbsp;are relayed to congregations, also varies from pastor to pastor (or, as you say, location to location). But what any given pastor believes and/or teaches is not even the point, even though that too is variable. The point was the accepted denominational positions, whether through their seminaries or, in the case of generic Trinitarian seminaries, the heirarchy of the churches their graduates then become a part of,&nbsp;on SPECIFIC ASPECTS of defining the Trinity, vary from one to another.

You said:

[Me:]"You lost me here. I have no idea as to how anything I said fits in any timeframe."

[You:]then its not prophsey <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0> the term you should use is revealed thought, which according to scriptures, its not that either <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0>


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Ohhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - I get it.

Prophesying can take one of two basic manifestations, or a combination of the two.

"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

Sadly, and mostly because of contemporary abuses by many with their so-called "personal words," but also because of what we generally think of concerning OT prophets, and also due to its being applied to End-time events - it being called "propheCy", many have the mistaken misconception that "prophesying" always refers to future events.

There is a FOREtelling aspect of prophesying, wherein something is given speaking of future events.

There is a FORTHtelling aspect of prophesying, which is the Lord quickening, or making alive, what is on the Father's heart for a specific audience at a specific time.

(The latter is more fully explained in such works as can be found at benisrael.org - too extrenuous for expounding upon here.)

Sometimes a prophetic word will be a mixture of both foretelling and forthtelling.

Same Spirit. Categorigally, the same basic "gift" of the Spirit. Two differing manifestations.

"But he that propesieth speaketh onto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." "For you may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn . . .."

We can see many results from prophesying. It's for our learning and growth as believers.

A lot of confusion comes just from the two words: propheSy and propheCy. The former a verb, which is speaking or writing prophetically, and either fore- or forth- telling. The latter is a noun usually reserved for when referring to End-time events.

You said:

"[Me:]If He didn't reveal my words to be true, as I said, then of course you don't accept and believe it."

[You:]There is but one spirit, and he doesn't tell one person something is true and another something is false.


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Correct.


You said:<FONT size=2>You don't alline with the bible, thus I conclude it is your opinion.

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You cannot say that as fact. What you could say, is, "You don't align with the Bible as I believe it," or, if you really want to be adamant, "You don't align with the Bible as I believe the Spirit told me is true.

If you really want to be insistent here, then you could tell us all, "The Spirit says such-and-such that you, brotherjim said, is false, because the Spirit says such-and-such is true." Is that what you want to declare to all of us? After all, I put myself out there with no deception whatsoever. I unequivocaly stated my thread starter was a prophetic word from the Spirit. So do you have a correcting prophetic word from God for us all? Please say so then. As you stated above about me - however incorrectly I assert - you are not interested in my opinion. Well, I too am not interested in my opinion. I'm only interested in what the Spirit has to say. So, tell us all,&nbsp;Outspoken, what does the Spirit of God have to say?

You said:
</FONT>[Me:]"prophetically as all Christians are commanded to do "

[You:]No, you write your OPINION. This is not prophsey, nor is it from God. God doesn't contradict himself.


Again: 1) It's not my opinion. My opinion, for an example, would be how I always believed in the Trinity. Such was not specifically and divinely revealed to me, but taught to me ever since childhood and adopted by me intellectually, based upon a preponderance of scripture an its implication. But&nbsp;I cannot quote it as undeniable Truth, because the Spirit has never quickened it as so. He HAS revealed things to me. as I previously stated, concerning the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which would difer, I'm sure, from what you believe. The whole point of this ongoing thread was that a belief in a Trinity is not a required prerequisite for salvation, belief in the undeniable fact that God the Father has decreed Jesus' Blood sufficient payment for our sins, is what grants us same when accepted by faith in the spirit realm - not the intellect.

Now you may be most concerned with proving what you believe is correct. I don't want to judge you as thus, and I'm not going to. But all who are viewing this thread, and seeing your arrogant smilie faces inserted here and there, and read your name-calling of me as a heretic and demon, make evident for most to likewise suspect your motives are impure.

I, on the other hand - and I believe God's Spirit will bear witness to their spirit as truth what I say, regardless of your comebacks and denials and distortions of my words - am not interested in anyone believing what I believe. My only concern is that there is a Heavenly Father that has a victorious Christian walk in-store for each and every choild or prospective child of His, and there are reasons they have yet to experience that, and there are wonderous eternal rewards for those who manage to sift through all the garbage and smoke screens and become the overcomer Jesus wants so desperately for each to partake.

Outspoken, you, too, are one whom I have been pored out as an instrument to help. But if you cannot accept it, that's between you and God, and there's no thing I can do to change it. And while the Lord Loves you so very much, He also Loves the many others who read here just as much. So you're making Him weigh His Love for you against His Love and protection from heart idols of the others. Please, I beseech you on His behalf, do not place yourself in that very dangerous position. Leave the doctrines up to those who were so ordained. If you cannot believe me as one, that is your persona; opinion to which God allows you.And if you want to e-mail me privately to further malign or whatever you need, please do so and I will allow it. But please stop bruising His sheep.

Wow.

You said:

[Me:]"I can find nothing in the written Word of God to disprove what was first posted."

[You:]then you aren't reading closely enough. Christ was God when he was here, Col 2 says so as much EXPLICTILY.


Yes, I understand that is what you belive. You have told us and told us and told us. You and others have listed scripture and interpretations to back up your personal dogma. i have listed what I did to the contrary. Nowthe only thing left is for each to move on and individually, hopefully with the Holy Ghost bearing witness, as to who is telling truth and who is telling error.

It should be painfully obvious by now that you don't think I can see the truth in scripture, and my original post implies you don't see clearly in scripture. WE GET IT ALREADY.

You said:

[Me:]"He was able to lay aside any divinity in order to be just a man"

Nope, he didn't do that at all, he limited himself, but did not lay it aside. He was still God. I think you need to do a closer look at what Christ said about himself in the NT and what the NT writers said about him. Start in Col.


-------------------

To repeat, I did. And I've concluded my original post is correct. There's no more need for ME to look any further into it. I've been moved on to other areas.

Others not so concluded by the Spirit, SHOULD, however, do as you suggest and start in Colossians if they feel so led. Okay?

To repeat:

There are many scriptures that, when assembled together, someone can deduce the implication you believe.

There are many scriptures that, when assembled together, someone can deduce the implication I stated. I know YOU don't believe they imply what they do, but there's still the possibility of implication. I know YOU don't believe there's still the possibility of implication, but I and others do or will.

Outspoken, please beliveve me when&nbsp;I say that I personally am not becoming impatient with you. You have allowed me to bring many things to the surface here, in many different areas of study, which may be of benefit to others. In fact, most of what&nbsp;I have learned these past few weeks since posting the trilogy of threads&nbsp;I have (Familial Headship, Why We Believe What We Do, and this one), came about as the result of oppositional posters like you. It makes me look to, and lean heavily upon, the Spirit for answers. But isn't it obvious that you and I can go no further on this subject? I mean, it seems as though you are just saying the same things over and over again. We get it - you think I'm wrong, and a demon and/or heretic. Okay, we get it. Everyone's been amply warned to beware of me. But I'm still going to Love you with that great and unfathomable Love of God, as&nbsp;I hope you also will do with me. If I need to ask forgiveness for anything, "Please forgive me." If you think me grossly in error or in need of some deliverance, please pray for me. And I thank you. But it should be clear that your words are of no benefit to me, just as it's clear to me that my words are of no benefit to you. Okay?

jim

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Outspoken

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"The "Apostle's Creed," or similar summary"

why don't you tell me which church you're refering to and I can tell you what they believe and where to find it.

"similar to theologically convey to its students their definition of the Trinity."

Not really, I just told you in my last post.

"Sometimes a prophetic word will be a mixture of both foretelling and forthtelling."

No, it will ALWAYS be a mix of both.

"You cannot say that as fact."

Yes, I can because you say christ was not God when he was on earth, the bible says he was, thus you contradict it.


"So do you have a correcting prophetic word from God for us all?"

Yes, I do, it is not a prophetic word, but a revealed truth of God. Christ was God when he was in bodily form. Incarnate docterine is true and is an essential part of the christian faith. If you don't beleive it, you're not a christian.


"Outspoken, you, too, are one whom I have been pored out as an instrument to help. But if you cannot accept it, that's between you and God, and there's no thing I can do to change it."

I think I am here to enlighten you and lead you back to the truth. God himself has shown me that you dont' beleive the bible, or you would believe Christ was God when he was on earth. If you don't want to Accept God's word, that's between you and him. I have done all and I can and I have let God speak through his Holy word to me and to you. If you don't want to accept God's word, that's fine with me, but don't go saying he didn't tell you. :)


"WE GET IT ALREADY."

then stop replying. Scripture makes it quite clear that Christ was God here on earth and did not 'put aside' his divinity. Col 2 states as much.


"There's no more need for ME to look any further into it."

Yes, there is because you're in DIRECT conflict with the bible.


"there's still the possibility of implication. "

NO, there is not. That is where we disagree. You believe the word of God can lie. I do not. It says christ is God and there is no wiggle room on it. Sorry to have to break it to you, but that's what God says. :)

I'll just post a few things that prove Christ was God.
 
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Outspoken

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Evidence of Christ's Divine Nature
21) Self-Existent
Christ has no beginning - as only God can claim
22) Omnipotent
Christ has all power - as only God can have!
23) Omnipresent
Christ's divine nature is infinite and without boundary - as only God can be!
24) Omniscience
Christ knows every secret - as only God can know!
25) Holy
Christ is holy and righteous - as only God is holy.
26) Good
Christ is good - as only God is good.
27) Just
Christ is fair and just, and judge of everyone - as only God shows justice.
28) Eternal
Christ is eternal, pre-existent and the ancient of days - as only God is beyond the markers of time.
29) Immutable
Christ is the same today, yesterday, and forever, consistent, unchanging - as only God is immutable.
30) The Creator
Christ is no other than the one who spoke time, the universe, the laws of physics, and your soul into being - as only God can do!
31) Sustainer of Life
Christ is the one who sustains all life - as God is the source of life
32) The King
Christ is the King of the Universe - as only God can rule!
33) sends forth the Holy Spirit
Christ sends forth the Comforter - as only God can send forth His Spirit.
34) The Light of the World
Christ is the source of spiritual light and truth and the light of heaven - as only God is the source of truth.
 
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brotherjim

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Whomever,

This thread got so off-track, that I felt it was important to recap its intended purpose before it was closed out. The aim was not to establish a universally accepted doctrine concerning Christ’s earthly years, but a reminder by God that we as His children have access to the same Graces by which our Lord also operated. It’s not essential anyone believe what was first posted here, but to believe the following is possible for all who are saved and walk in His Spirit:

We can overcome all the sin yet remaining in our lives, both those known, and those unknown and still residing within our heart - our hearts can be divinely purged from all its impurities/idols/little gods.

As our hearts become more pure, we can have the fullness of all nine fruits of the Spirit - as are listed in Gal.5:21-22.

If you are a charismatic believer in that you believe the nine gifts of the Spirit listed in 1Cor.12 are still in operation today, once the heart has been made more pure and is freed from being puffed up with pride, and we become jealous for the glory of God alone, we are able to operate in whatever fullness of the Spirit gifts the Holy Ghost wills - their flourishing intricately tied to our Meekness, Love, and other fruits.

We can be given the same Godly Wisdom by which Jesus and the apostles operated in, which we are told to seek in James 1.

By incorporating these things into our lives, we can become the victorious Christian we desire, and be one of the "overcomers" the Word declares will receive a crown and escape the [possible] terror of the last days.

May the Heavenly Father bless you with every spiritual blessing He has in store for you in the Heavenlies, in the name of Christ Jesus - the name above every name, our Lord and Savior, King of all kings and a world without end. Amen.

His Lover of your souls, your brother, jim

[Thank you all very much for helping to make this what I hope was an edifying thread. Everyone's input was greatly appreciated.]
 
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DaveKerwin

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Jim, you somehow avoided my question. Maybe you didn't understand it, let me ask it again.

Did Jesus exist before he came physically to Earth? Before he was incarnated, did he exist in heaven? If not, why? If so, what does this mean about his nature ?

Thanks in adavance for your responce.
 
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DaveKerwin

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Jim,

please respond to my post about the pre-existance of Christ,

and to Col 2: 9-10
(For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. )
 
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brotherjim

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Outspoken, DaveKerwin, other "Opposers,"

My work on this thread is finished.

For anyone who desires further theological pursuit of this matter, I would recommend two current threads going on at christiansunite.com, under the topics "Was Jesus God" (same as this) and "Why? John 1:1" by "me" (not me).
 
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DaveKerwin

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
I, like most of you, believe Jesus was God in the flesh. Read John chapter 1. That should answer all questions whether he was God or not.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." "And the Word was made flesh."

Prepare for His coming.

Good post Dan
 
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DaveKerwin

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29th November 2002 at 01:52 PM danrobinson_92562 said this in Post #72

I, like most of you, believe Jesus was God in the flesh. Read John chapter 1. That should answer all questions whether he was God or not.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." "And the Word was made flesh."

Prepare for His coming.


I recently read John 1 and was reminded of this post. Look at it this way.

  • 1. "The Word was God." (John 1)
  • 2. 'The Word' refers to Jesus. (John 1)
  • 3. Therefore, Jesus was God. (from premise 1 & 2)

I brought this back up to show how clear the bible says that Jesus was God. Any other teaching is a false gospel, do not believe it.
 
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