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Was Jesus God?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by brotherjim, Nov 8, 2002.

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  1. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

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    What creator do you think that it was that walked in the Garden with Adam?

    Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

    Isa. 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    I'm sure it goes without saying that....

    2Cor. 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

    etc.....

    In light of the fact that He is our creator, have you not considered all the OT references of the "God's" inner action with His people?

    And maybe in light of some other scripture....

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    You see is was Christ all along who was the one who intercessed with His people.

    Hagar
    After Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham, she and the barren Sarah could no longer coexist peacefully. Sarah mistreated her now haughty handmaid until Hagar fled into the desert. "And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness" (Genesis 16:7). The angel told Hagar to go back and submit to Sarah, and promised that her son, Ishmael, would be the father of a great nation. When the "angel" disappeared, Hagar, "called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me" (verse 13). It appears Hagar recognized that the "angel" who had spoken to her was really God.

    Abraham
    God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on mount Moriah. Just as he was about to plunge the dagger into his son of promise, the angel of the Lord stopped him. "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:11, 12).

    It is clear that Abraham was offering his son to God and not to a mere angel. "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, … because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Genesis 22:15-1 . In recounting this experience of Abraham in Acts 3:25, Peter also identifies this "angel of the Lord" as God.

    Jacob
    While fleeing from his angry brother Esau, Jacob had a dream in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham to him. After receiving assurance that God would be with him and bring him back safely to his home in Canaan, Jacob vowed to return to God a tithe of all his increase. He set up the stone he had been using for a pillow and anointed it with oil to solemnize his vow. Then he named the place Beth-el, or house of God, since God had appeared to him there.

    Twenty years later Jacob was on his way back home, not a penniless fugitive, but a wealthy man. God reminded Jacob who had really brought him success. Here's how Jacob recounted the story: "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I" (Genesis 31:11). In verse 13 this "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."

    Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). Clearly, the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself.

    When Jacob was on his death bed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!

    Moses
    Moses saw a burning bush that was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse four identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse six He identifies Himself. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!

    In his last sermon before he was stoned to death, Stephen agrees with the Exodus account. "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Acts 7:30-32).

    In another instance, the children of Israel were led through the wilderness by God, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" (Exodus 13:21). Moses describes it this way: "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them" (Exodus 14:19). Again, "the angel of God" is identified as God.

    to be continued....
     
  2. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

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    ....continued from above.

    Joshua
    Just as Israel was preparing for its first battle after crossing into the Promised Land, Joshua had an encounter with an unusual warrior. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15).

    Not only did Joshua worship this being, but the heavenly captain received his worship. If he had been a mere angel, he would have rebuked Joshua just like the angel rebuked John for trying to worship him (see Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9).

    In all the cases where the angel of the Lord accepts worship, it is clearly the Son of God. But where regular created angels are worshiped, they refuse it. Even Jesus reminded Satan in the wilderness, "For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Luke 4:8) .

    In fact, all the created angels are commanded to worship Jesus as they did during His first advent. "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). The devil is infuriated because he knows that someday even he will be compelled to acknowledge Jesus as king and worship Him. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10, 11).

    The phrase "Lord of hosts" is found 245 times in the Bible and refers to the "commander of God's angelic army." So the "captain of the Lord's host" that Joshua saw was not an angel, but Jesus Himself. That explains why He demanded that Joshua remove his shoes. The place was holy because Jesus was there, just as Jesus' presence at the burning bush made that ground holy for Moses.

    Balaam
    In the story of Balaam and his talking donkey, the angel of the Lord again figures prominently. It is this angel who nearly kills the covetous prophet, who is on his way to curse God's people, and saves the donkey from her merciless master (Numbers 22:21-35). After Balaam's close brush with death, "the angel of the Lord said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shall speak" (verse 35). The next chapter reveals who put the words in the prophet's mouth: "And God met Balaam: … And the Lord put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus shalt thou speak" (Numbers 23:4, 5). Here again, "the angel of the Lord" turns out to be God Himself.

    Gideon
    Gideon had an encounter with the angel of the Lord in the book of Judges. The angel told Gideon that the Lord was with him. Gideon pointed to the oppression of Israel by the Midianites as evidence to the contrary. "And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?" (Judges 6:14). Throughout the rest of the narrative, the person speaking to Gideon is identified interchangeably as the Lord, the angel of the Lord, and the angel of God.

    Manoah
    Samson's mother, the wife of Manoah, was barren. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman" (Judges 13:3). This angel told her she would bear a son who would deliver the apostate Israelites from their heathen oppressors. She quickly called Manoah, who prayed for another visit from the "man of God." When the angel came the second time, Manoah asked him his name. The King James Version of the Bible says that the angel told Manoah that his name was "Secret," with a margin notation that translates it as "Wonderful." This immediately makes us think of Isaiah's familiar prophecy that the name of the coming Messiah would be "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The name "Wonderful" for the angel of the Lord who appeared to Manoah connects this "angel" with the coming Messiah who was to be called "Wonderful."

    No One Has Seen the Father
    Suddenly we have more leads than we can follow at once. The "angel of the Lord" is clearly shown to be God. But the Bible states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:1 . John 6:46 tells us, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." Obviously, since no man has seen God the Father, all of these Old Testament sightings of God as the "angel of the Lord" must have been Jesus, God the Son, veiling His glory so they could endure His presence without being consumed.

    Who Is as God!
    When Phillip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father, Christ responded: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

    Some think that God's Son waited 4,000 years to personally intervene in the affairs of man. Not so! Though it is true that the incarnation occurred 4,000 years after man's fall, God the Son has been personally involved in the history and affairs of His people.

    What a wonderful truth that Jesus, God's eternal Son, has ever been actively occupied in watching over, providing for, and protecting His children! He spoke face to face with Abraham and Moses and wrestled with Jacob. He led the Israelites through the wilderness, providing food and water and victory against their enemies.
     
  3. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Dear Dave,

    Your assumption is undoubtably the reason theologians of past eras have reached the intellectual conclusion regarding the Trinity that they have. But this is mere human reasoning. We cannot find in God's Word that the Father deemed a "worthy sacrifice for our sins" to be God Himself. What it DOES say is that a sacrifice "without spot or wrinkle" was required: thus the sinless life of Jesus. Again, the theologians have intellectually concluded that in order for Jesus to have lived a sinless life, He must have been God. But this was just their way of justifying their own continuing sin. If we can believe that Jesus was God and that THAT is why He did not sin, then we can validate our sin because we are not God.

    Any perversion of scripture can be traced back to either, number one, ignorance, or, number two, self-justification of sin. Since the doctrines of denominations are well thought out be intelligent and learned men, this pretty much excludes number one.

    Please see also my following post to reeann.
     
  4. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Dave,

    P.S. I CAN agree with you on this, and add a hearty AMEN!!

    jim
     
  5. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Dear reeann,

    The lord brought you to my mind as I was walking in the woods today, alone with only Him.

    I feel led to suggest something to you:

    Take that piece of paper upon which you listed the three coulmns you spoke of, and turn it over to it’s blank side. Now, for just a moment, if you will, also make blank your mind. Take all the things you’ve learned about God, whether through your own devices or by the taught traditions of men, and lay them aside so as to consider something based upon logic.

    (While we cannot obtain the things of God through the intellect, but rather in the spirit realm, once we are in the Way/Truth, logic is a good tool for using as an added witness to what is in the Word.)

    Kindly let me briefly lead you through a progression of over-simplified thoughts:

    1) The Bible contains numerous commandments that God requires of us.

    2) For example, one of these commandments is for us to love every other human being, including our enemies, equal to how we want to be loved and/or love ourselves. Another is to unconditionally love God with every facet of our being. And yet another is to carry on the works of Christ.

    3) In fact, in addition to the commandments of God, by contemplating what is in-between the lines of scripture, we can further deduce that God is asking us [commanding ?] whom He saved to lay aside our rights as Christians to be His children, and become instead servants: servants to the Love Law as explained by the Apostle Paul. This Law is, in essence, asking [commanding ?] us to put the needs of all others EVEN AHEAD of our own. It’s asking [commanding ?] the mother, for instance, to have the same natural tendency for her to risk her life to save that of her child, to be applied to all human beings.

    4) Obviously, all the above is not possible to be obeyed by a Christian, unless there was something more available beyond that which is generally known. It would seem that the believer would require the exact same Graces as Jesus had when in the flesh, for us to comply with like-obedience.

    5) If the Word would imply that Jesus somehow had access to more of God’s power than we as Christians have, this would obviously give us excuse for not complying with all the commandments of the New Testament.

    6) Furthermore, if God had commanded us to do something that we were not able to do, He would be an unjust God. But we know that God is perfectly just.

    7) So if God is perfectly just, and He would not command us to do something He did not also provide the Graces we need to obey Him - and not have a just excuse to the contrary, and if we would need the same degree of Graces Jesus had for us to obey what is commanded of us, then we would have to conclude that Jesus did not have any more divine ability than God would also give us. If Jesus in the flesh would’ve been 100% God as most erroneously believe, He certainly would have had a great advantage over the mere Christian: and we would therefor have great excuse for our failures.

    (It would also then not be blasphemous for us to realize this necessity of the fullness of God’s Spirit in and upon us - quite the opposite, in fact.)

    "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who . . . thought it not robbery to be equal with God . . .."
     
  6. Matthew

    Matthew Member

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    Hi, I know that this was not in response to me, but I couldn't help responding to such logical errors as these!

    Not exactly. The believer has the help of the Holy Spirit (God himself), as described in Romans 8. By submitting ourselves to him, we too can became more like Christ.

    No it would not. If we have enough power (through God) to obey his commands, then we have no excuse. If Christ had more than that, that does not matter.
     
  7. Matthew

    Matthew Member

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    I am unhappy to inform you that this is heresy. If we do not know the form of the Lord we worship, then we could be worshipping the devil!

    That is actually incorrect. As someone who has taken philosophy courses, I know that the definition of human nature and divine nature are not exculsive or contradictory.

    False. Jesus' divine nature could not be tempted to sin. His human nature could. So, Jesus could be tempted, but God the Father (having no human nature) could not.

    False. The Bible commands us to love the Lord our God with our hearts, mind, soul and strength. This is the first commandment. The second is to love our neighbour as ourself.
     
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Mr BJ please answer the following questions.

    If Jesus is the son of God and he was God beforehand that became flesh by the miracle of conception of the virgin Mary with God being the Father do profess that Jesus when he was born just had the attributes of Mary having none of the attrbutes of the Farther or Deity?

    Do you belive the following verse BJ?
    Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Notice these verse together BJ.
    Philp 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
     6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

    Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as <I>we are, yet </I>without sin.

    Jesus was both man and deity but&nbsp;he humbled himself as a man and learned and went through the temptations that we go through to be an example for us. No human before or after Christ has been able to do this. Jesus was perfect for us and fulfilled the law. What a wonderful high priest he is to know what we go through and can understand the powers of temptation we deal with. He shows us to be obedeit like he was until the death. He had the ability to forgive sin in his human form which only God could do.

    With your view what changed about Jesus humanity when the HS came upon him and stayed?

    Can you explain why Jesus just being a man was worshiped if he was not&nbsp; God? Remember that angles nor men are to be worshiped.

    &nbsp;
    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  9. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Dear cougan,

    I went through all the same stuff you're bringing up, and adequately addressed it, on one of the following forums:
    christiansunite.com
    charismamag.com - Letters to the Editor

    If you don't find it there, let me know and I'll give you some more. Sorry, but I didn't have time to research it for you or pen it again here.
     
  10. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

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    &nbsp;

    Jim, I hate to tell you but when you have found out you're wrong, as you have, please take it in grace, correct yourself by following the bible, and realize that trinity is who God is and its what the bible says.
     
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    BJ I am not going to waste my time trying to track down and find your answers to these questions. You are on this thread in this forum. If you dont plan on discussing the issue here why bother putting your 2 cents in. If this is so important to you it should not bother you to repeat yourself or better yet why dont you cut and paste your answers from those other forums. That should'nt take to much of your time to do.

    Cougan
     
  12. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

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    Yeah, forget it, Jesus was just some random guy. Who needs him. Not you and me. He wasn't special. He wasn't from heaven. Him and the father were not one. Jesus must be a liar. He wasn't a worthy sacrifice either. You really made me open my mind to all kinds of herecy, thanks for that. You know, I think I am gonna ditch everything I know about christianity and ponder my navel instead. What do you think ?
     
  13. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Beloved Outspoken,

    I'm sorry, but I cannot repent from what I fully believe was something the Spirit of God penned through my hand. Such would be, for me, sin. But I also understand if you cannot accept this as truth. It's okay, and I understand - as does Christ Jesus.

    Go in Peace, dear sister, your brother, jim

    "For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved Him to be made like onto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He himself has suffered being tempted, He is able to succour [or, aid] them that are tempted." Heb.2:16-18

    [Edit:+]

    P.S. I had to come back here because in the back of my mind I was suspecting something amiss. In that which I quoted you above as saying, you claim I must "realize that Trinity . . .." With all due respect, sister, it's very unfair, to say the least, to even imply someone does not believe in the Trinity just because their definition doesn't line up exactly with yours. I think if you did a survey, you would be hard pressed to also find Christian denominations whose definitions were identical.

    And if the Trinity is as many claim, why do I never hear them praising and worshipping the Holy Ghost? [Rhetorical] Selah.
     
  14. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    Dear [still I hope] Brother Dave,

    While I would beg to differ from most of what you stated, if God has been using any of this to devastate your categories and chip away at any idols you may have formed in your heart from what was intended to be holy things, then the victorious Christian life is moving closer to reality for you. Many blessings, my friend. I fully trust Christ Jesus to not lose any the Father has given Him.

    [Allegedly] in His Love for you, jim
     
  15. unitedistand

    unitedistand Crying for the Bridegroom

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    ok Dave, perhaps you forget the fact that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? Givin birth by a (yes, literal) virgin (not just innocent)?

    Perhaps you've not read the four gospels?

    Perhaps you're not taking into consideration John 10:30 which states Yashua and Yahweh are one in the same? Did you not know that Yashua made that claim (it's the same unity as the Ruach Ha Kodesh and Yahweh behold)?

    Perhaps you forgot that when Jesus (Yashua) claimed who he said he was, he always had Pharacees and religious-minded people trying to kill him for blasphemy (claiming to be equal to Yahweh)?

    Perhaps you forgot the claim of what John himself said about Yashua in John 1:1-15? Or perhaps you just choose to block it out entirely?

    Just things to ponder...
     
  16. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

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    I have not abandoned the faith by any means. I was attempting to use sarcasm to prove a point. It is a heretical teaching that Jesus was not God, in the same way it is a heretical teaching that Jesus and the Father are not one, and so on.

    Are you new to the faith? Is this why you believe this stuff?
     
  17. Matthew

    Matthew Member

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    It is interesting that you haven't answered my post. Perhaps you have no answer?

    Have your reasons changed?
     
  18. brotherjim

    brotherjim Well-Known Member

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    If you were addressing me:

    1) Correct: I have nothing to share with you. Sorry.

    2) No, nothing has changed.

    The conflicting views have been stated, and it's up to each to decide for themselves, hopefully with the Holy Ghost bearing witness with their spirit, as to what is truth and what is error.

    Thank you for the input, however.

    [Allegedly] in Him, bro. jim
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    So BJ you thing that the HS had you pen it? Did he talk to you or did you just get a thought in your head and then right it down?
     
  20. unitedistand

    unitedistand Crying for the Bridegroom

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    ok, couple more questions:

    Why, when we pray, we address the father in the name of Jesus?
    Why, when a person casts out demons, does so in the name of Jesus?
    Who else is salvation given through?
     
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