Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

[Defending Our Lord]

Originally posted by JesusServant

1) Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

2) Why would Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of God?  Do you think He will be beside Himself?

3) Why would Jesus say it is not His purpose to judge the unbelievers that is His Father's job?

4) Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

5) It is said in scripture that Jesus was the Image of God, not God Himself.  Why wouldn't it just say He was God if this were so?

EDIT: 6)  Only the Father IN HEAVEN knew the time in which Christ would return, if Jesus was God then He too would have known the time of His return right?

I could go on and on with questions that seem contradictory if I see Jesus as God.  I just can't seem to grasp that.  I myself see Him as the Holy Son of God and the only righteous man to ever live and die for all who would believe in Him.  If you're going to just flame me and not give me concrete scriptural proof or at least your opinion on the matter, please don't reply.  I really would like to see the basis for this belief so that maybe the Holy Spirit will turn on a light for me to understand it in that way as well.  God bless!

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As you know J.S. I am not that well versed as of yet.  Yes...I am getting there...don't rush me.

Here is my 2 cents.

Jesus was God in the flesh.....God gave Jesus the authority(maybe not the best word) that he himself masters.

Think of it this way....if Jesus and God are indeed one person..well heck what was the purpose of all Jesus did when he was alive?  Was he not here to show the way to God.

In order for Jesus to do what he did he had to be empowered by God.....infused if you will.  I am not going to drop scripture cause you know what ones I would use. He had the authority and power of God.

Done.....

 

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Thomas thought Jesus was God (Jn20:28). Peter thought Jesus was God (2:1:1).

And Paul does indeed seem to boldly assert that Jesus IS GOD (Titus2:12)...

How can we believe differently?

Ben, have you been INTO Thomas' mind lately? How do you know that Tomas THOUGHT Jesus was God? If I say to you Ben, "my God Ben," does that mean to you that I THINK you are God?

Ben, Thomas was a Jew. He was schooled since childhood to cal God "Lord God." If he thought that Jesus was God, he would have called him "my Lord God." Besides, Thomas was not only a DISCIPLE who BELIEVED Jesus and ABIDED in his word (John 8:31). Thomas was also an apostle to the end of his life.

Are you sure apostle Peter THOUGHT Jesus was God? Then why did he write: "Blessed be the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 1:3)? 2 Peter 1:1 was MISTRANSLANTED by omitting the "OF" before savior to make it look like Jesus is God.

Same with Titus 2:13. Otherwise, why would apostle Paul write: "Blessed be the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."(Eph. 1:3) AND "We give thanks to the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Col. 1:3)?

Apostle Paul CLEARLY wrote that for Christians, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father....(1 Cor. 8:6).

Ed

 

[drmmjr]

If it is true I would have to change the way I read the Bible, and every time I attempt to I fail...

"ME! ME! Why have I forsaken myself!?"

"This is Me with whom I am well pleased"

This is a misunderstanding of the persons of the Godhead. Jesus was not talking to himself, he was talking to the Father.

I think that the point being made was that God "the Father" was talking to God "the son". In which case God is talking to himself.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by drmmjr
I think that the point being made was that God "the Father" was talking to God "the son". In which case God is talking to himself.

My point is that it does not make "God speaking to Himself."

They are one in essence but they are eternally distinct from each other.

 

[The Thadman]

Originally posted by franklin
quote:So, I say, One God, many facets. How difficult would it be again for a being who exists outside of our time and dimensions to have more than one stream of consciousness or perception? Or should I ask, is God's Avatar on earth ALL of God (an extra-dimensional being FULLY within our dimensions), or just a meltho, or facet, of him?

Sounds like one of those quotes from the "Twilight Zone" 

Are you going to mock or respond to my philosophical meanderings?

If you'd like I could go on a discourse concerning Extra-Dimensional Theory

(Geez, I sound wordy... )

Shlomo! (Peace!)

 

[layne]

Originally posted by Apologist
Conspiracy? Now that's taking things a bit far.

Haha, it sure is! But I forgot to put my smiley after it, teehee! I am just the biggest joker aren't I!?

Well, to be honest, it has crossed my mind a few times that Satan plays a huge role in what goes on down here. Wouldn't it stink to find out that the Trinity is something he came up with so that rather than worshipping God, we worship his son, someone completely different. Wouldn't that be just awful to find out? I know I am not one of those people who don't believe the Trinity because I don't understand it or I'm scared of it. I won't accept it because nothing I have read or been told has ever convinced me. I have even prayed many times about this, and I have always had a big answer of NO! It's wrong!

I understand perfecty well that God has no beginning or end, and we don't have the mental capacity to understand him. So, the way I see it, not taking any scriptural evidence into account... God made the bible fairly straight forward. All of the commandments were made completely clear to us. Basically all of the bible is clear, at least everything that's relative to our goal of attaining everlasting life. So, if YHWH, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all one in the same, why on earth would God not include that in the Bible? The word Trinity isn't even in the bible! And the Bible is God's word! Shoud man's word be the basis for us to believe something about God?

As far as I am concerned, I am not doing any wrong by praying to YHWH through Jesus' name. I don't feel that I need to believe that Jesus is God just to worship God. If Jesus isn't God, the who am, I worshipping? Is there something wrong with worhshipping YHWH? I have never seen any scripture in the bible indicate that we need to worship Jesus to be favored in God's eyes.

Here is a great article that you probably won't read, but I hope you will:

http://british-israel.ca/trinity1.htm 

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by The Thadman
Are you going to mock or respond to my philosophical meanderings?

If you'd like I could go on a discourse concerning Extra-Dimensional Theory

(Geez, I sound wordy... )

Shlomo! (Peace!)

Hi Steve.

Hey, how does the Aramaic read for John chapter 1 concerning Christ's deity? Are the same words for YHWH used?

Thanks brother

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by layne
So, if YHWH, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all one in the same, why on earth would God not include that in the Bible? The word Trinity isn't even in the bible! And the Bible is God's word! Shoud man's word be the basis for us to believe something about God?

The word 'bible' is not in the bible either.
The word 'Trinity' is a theological term meaning that God is one in essence but three in nature. It does not mean that they are all "one in the same" as you stated either. Yes, they are all of the same essence but they are eternally distinct and each person is aware of His own consciousness.

The early church fathers used this term because they saw that the bible not only taught that the Father is God, but that Jesus is God and so is the Holy Spirit. It was not some strange new idea that they thought up but rather a term to tie together all the scripture taught on the subject of God's nature.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by edpobre

Ed,
I am still waiting for your reply about your statement that there is only one God (the Father) and only one Lord (Jesus Christ).  That is a reply in light of the verses I posted that say that God is Lord. 

 

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by layne

Here is a great article that you probably won't read, but I hope you will:

http://british-israel.ca/trinity1.htm  [/B]

Layne,

Do yourself a favor and don't read anything written by Garner Ted Armstrong. He is a cult leader.

 

[HalfPint]

I haven't read through this whole thread, because it is rather long, so if somebody has already posted these verses, I apologize.

These verses clearly indicate to me that, yes, Jesus Chris, the Son of God, was God.  I cannot pretend to understand the Trinity, as it is way too complex, but from my studies in the scriptures, I do believe it exists.

Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Sonis given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2Jo 1:9  Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.

Heb 1:8  But to the Son He say, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

 

[billhabing]

Dear Halfpint, I have asked this question before on this thread. I know this forum is for discussing doctrinal isues and I am not being critical of that. the question is: What difference would it make in your relationship with God if the trinity was not true?

Would you do anything different if you found out that Jesus is the son of God and you are His sister?

 

[The Thadman]

Originally posted by Apologist
Hi Steve.

Hey, how does the Aramaic read for John chapter 1 concerning Christ's deity? Are the same words for YHWH used?

Thanks brother

"In the beginning was the Meltho, and that Meltho was with Aloho, and Aloho was that Meltho. This was in the beginning with Aloho. Everything in/by his hands existed, and without him, not one (thing) existed of the things which have existed."

Meltho can mean "word" and in later dialects of Aramaic came to be used as the grammatical term for "verb." However, it's best translated as "thing," "facet," "entity," "manifestation," "instance," "substance," or "reason." It has no direct English (or Greek) counterpart.

Aloho is the Aramaic equivalent of ELOHIM.

MORYO ("Lord YHWH") is not used anywhere in John 1.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by The Thadman
"In the beginning was the Meltho, and that Meltho was with Aloho, and Aloho was that Meltho. This was in the beginning with Aloho. Everything in/by his hands existed, and without him, not one (thing) existed of the things which have existed."

Meltho can mean "word" and in later dialects of Aramaic came to be used as the grammatical term for "verb." However, it's best translated as "thing," "facet," "entity," "manifestation," "instance," "substance," or "reason." It has no direct English (or Greek) counterpart.

Aloho is the Aramaic equivalent of ELOHIM.

MORYO ("Lord YHWH") is not used anywhere in John 1.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

Thanks Steve.

I guess what I was getting at was that in the Aramaic the "Meltho" (Word) in John 1 is indeed Elohim or God himself. Correct?

 

[The Thadman]

~Nods~ Yep! 'Appears to be the case

Shlomo! (Peace!)

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by drmmjr
I think that the point being made was that God "the Father" was talking to God "the son". In which case God is talking to himself.

This is the part that no one should agree with. If you read the Old Testament at all, you should know there is only ONE GOD, not God the Father and God the Son. There is only one God, the living God, God the Father and the father of Jesus. It's one thing to say Jesus and the Father were of one entity or fabric, it's another to separate Jesus as another God. This should never be done.

EDIT: to drmmjr, I don't think you view it this way, you just clarified the point and the very thing that is a problem with modern views of the Trinity.

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Defending Our Lord
 

As you know J.S. I am not that well versed as of yet.  Yes...I am getting there...don't rush me.

Here is my 2 cents.

Jesus was God in the flesh.....God gave Jesus the authority(maybe not the best word) that he himself masters.

Think of it this way....if Jesus and God are indeed one person..well heck what was the purpose of all Jesus did when he was alive?  Was he not here to show the way to God.

In order for Jesus to do what he did he had to be empowered by God.....infused if you will.  I am not going to drop scripture cause you know what ones I would use. He had the authority and power of God.

Done.....

 

[pong][/pong]

 

[Defending Our Lord]

 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by billhabing
Dear Halfpint, I have asked this question before on this thread. I know this forum is for discussing doctrinal isues and I am not being critical of that. the question is: What difference would it make in your relationship with God if the trinity was not true?

Would you do anything different if you found out that Jesus is the son of God and you are His sister?

Huh?  I believe in the Trinity and I believe that Jesus is the son of God and is my brother.  The Bible tells us so.  It also tells us that Jesus is God too though. 

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Blackhawk
Huh?  I believe in the Trinity

  Not good.  Tell us why you believe it.   

and I believe that Jesus is the son of God and is my brother. 

Bingo!  Now that's good BH !  your making some progress !

The Bible tells us so. 

Great!  you mean the scriptures tells us that Jesus is the Son of God? 

It also tells us that Jesus is God too though. 

I knew it was to good to be true and you were batting 100 until this!      It's time for you to hit the scriptures once again!