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Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JesusServant, Dec 27, 2002.

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  1. Defending Our Lord

    Defending Our Lord Come to the Light

    27
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    As you know J.S. I am not that well versed as of yet.  Yes...I am getting there...don't rush me. :p

    Here is my 2 cents.

    Jesus was God in the flesh.....God gave Jesus the authority(maybe not the best word) that he himself masters.

    Think of it this way....if Jesus and God are indeed one person..well heck what was the purpose of all Jesus did when he was alive?  Was he not here to show the way to God.

    In order for Jesus to do what he did he had to be empowered by God.....infused if you will.  I am not going to drop scripture cause you know what ones I would use. He had the authority and power of God.

    Done..... :wave:

     
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Ben, have you been INTO Thomas' mind lately? How do you know that Tomas THOUGHT Jesus was God? If I say to you Ben, "my God Ben," does that mean to you that I THINK you are God?

    Ben, Thomas was a Jew. He was schooled since childhood to cal God "Lord God." If he thought that Jesus was God, he would have called him "my Lord God." Besides, Thomas was not only a DISCIPLE who BELIEVED Jesus and ABIDED in his word (John 8:31). Thomas was also an apostle to the end of his life.

    Are you sure apostle Peter THOUGHT Jesus was God? Then why did he write: "Blessed be the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 1:3)? 2 Peter 1:1 was MISTRANSLANTED by omitting the "OF" before savior to make it look like Jesus is God.

    Same with Titus 2:13. Otherwise, why would apostle Paul write: "Blessed be the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."(Eph. 1:3) AND "We give thanks to the God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Col. 1:3)?

    Apostle Paul CLEARLY wrote that for Christians, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father....(1 Cor. 8:6).

    Ed
     
  3. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    I think that the point being made was that God "the Father" was talking to God "the son". In which case God is talking to himself.
     
  4. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    My point is that it does not make "God speaking to Himself."

    They are one in essence but they are eternally distinct from each other.
     
  5. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    Are you going to mock or respond to my philosophical meanderings? :)

    If you'd like I could go on a discourse concerning Extra-Dimensional Theory :)

    (Geez, I sound wordy... :p )

    Shlomo! (Peace!)
     
  6. layne

    layne ByKr ChYk

    420
    +9
    Pentecostal
    Haha, it sure is! But I forgot to put my smiley after it, teehee! I am just the biggest joker aren't I!? :p

    Well, to be honest, it has crossed my mind a few times that Satan plays a huge role in what goes on down here. Wouldn't it stink to find out that the Trinity is something he came up with so that rather than worshipping God, we worship his son, someone completely different. Wouldn't that be just awful to find out? I know I am not one of those people who don't believe the Trinity because I don't understand it or I'm scared of it. I won't accept it because nothing I have read or been told has ever convinced me. I have even prayed many times about this, and I have always had a big answer of NO! It's wrong!

    I understand perfecty well that God has no beginning or end, and we don't have the mental capacity to understand him. So, the way I see it, not taking any scriptural evidence into account... God made the bible fairly straight forward. All of the commandments were made completely clear to us. Basically all of the bible is clear, at least everything that's relative to our goal of attaining everlasting life. So, if YHWH, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all one in the same, why on earth would God not include that in the Bible? The word Trinity isn't even in the bible! And the Bible is God's word! Shoud man's word be the basis for us to believe something about God?

    As far as I am concerned, I am not doing any wrong by praying to YHWH through Jesus' name. I don't feel that I need to believe that Jesus is God just to worship God. If Jesus isn't God, the who am, I worshipping? Is there something wrong with worhshipping YHWH? I have never seen any scripture in the bible indicate that we need to worship Jesus to be favored in God's eyes.

    Here is a great article that you probably won't read, but I hope you will:

    http://british-israel.ca/trinity1.htm 
     
  7. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Hi Steve.

    Hey, how does the Aramaic read for John chapter 1 concerning Christ's deity? Are the same words for YHWH used?

    Thanks brother
     
  8. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    The word 'bible' is not in the bible either. ;)
    The word 'Trinity' is a theological term meaning that God is one in essence but three in nature. It does not mean that they are all "one in the same" as you stated either. Yes, they are all of the same essence but they are eternally distinct and each person is aware of His own consciousness.

    The early church fathers used this term because they saw that the bible not only taught that the Father is God, but that Jesus is God and so is the Holy Spirit. It was not some strange new idea that they thought up but rather a term to tie together all the scripture taught on the subject of God's nature.
     
  9. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican

    Ed,
    I am still waiting for your reply about your statement that there is only one God (the Father) and only one Lord (Jesus Christ).  That is a reply in light of the verses I posted that say that God is Lord. 

     
     
  10. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Layne,

    Do yourself a favor and don't read anything written by Garner Ted Armstrong. He is a cult leader. :(
     
  11. HalfPint

    HalfPint Saved by Grace

    14
    +0
    I haven't read through this whole thread, because it is rather long, so if somebody has already posted these verses, I apologize.

    These verses clearly indicate to me that, yes, Jesus Chris, the Son of God, was God.  I cannot pretend to understand the Trinity, as it is way too complex, but from my studies in the scriptures, I do believe it exists.

    Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Sonis given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    2Jo 1:9  Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.

    Heb 1:8  But to the Son He say, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
     
  12. billhabing

    billhabing Regular Member

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    Christian
    Dear Halfpint, I have asked this question before on this thread. I know this forum is for discussing doctrinal isues and I am not being critical of that. the question is: What difference would it make in your relationship with God if the trinity was not true?

    Would you do anything different if you found out that Jesus is the son of God and you are His sister?
     
  13. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    "In the beginning was the Meltho, and that Meltho was with Aloho, and Aloho was that Meltho. This was in the beginning with Aloho. Everything in/by his hands existed, and without him, not one (thing) existed of the things which have existed."

    Meltho can mean "word" and in later dialects of Aramaic came to be used as the grammatical term for "verb." However, it's best translated as "thing," "facet," "entity," "manifestation," "instance," "substance," or "reason." It has no direct English (or Greek) counterpart.

    Aloho is the Aramaic equivalent of ELOHIM.

    MORYO ("Lord YHWH") is not used anywhere in John 1. :)

    Shlomo! (Peace!)
     
  14. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Thanks Steve.

    I guess what I was getting at was that in the Aramaic the "Meltho" (Word) in John 1 is indeed Elohim or God himself. Correct?
     
  15. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
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    ~Nods~ Yep! 'Appears to be the case :)

    Shlomo! (Peace!)
     
  16. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    This is the part that no one should agree with. If you read the Old Testament at all, you should know there is only ONE GOD, not God the Father and God the Son. There is only one God, the living God, God the Father and the father of Jesus. It's one thing to say Jesus and the Father were of one entity or fabric, it's another to separate Jesus as another God. This should never be done.

    EDIT: to drmmjr, I don't think you view it this way, you just clarified the point and the very thing that is a problem with modern views of the Trinity.
     
  17. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

    +7
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    [pong]:wave:[/pong]
     
  18. Defending Our Lord

    Defending Our Lord Come to the Light

    27
    +0
     
     
  19. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Huh?  I believe in the Trinity and I believe that Jesus is the son of God and is my brother.  The Bible tells us so.  It also tells us that Jesus is God too though. 
     
  20. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
      Not good.  Tell us why you believe it.   
    Bingo!  Now that's good BH !  your making some progress !
    Great!  you mean the scriptures tells us that Jesus is the Son of God? 
    I knew it was to good to be true and you were batting 100 until this!  :(    It's time for you to hit the scriptures once again!
     
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