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Featured Was Jesus Complaining?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Acoustics4me, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Acoustics4me

    Acoustics4me New Member

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    Hi, guys. I'm new to the boards, so I just want to start by saying thanks for having me.

    I'm no academic, but I do enjoy and find it necessary to the maturing of my faith, to attempt to rightly divide the Word of God. So, with that in mind, I have a question.

    My study group is currently studying through the minor prophets. We work through a guide book, which I don't always agree with, and being the biggest mouth in our group (something I'm working on :)), I often say when I don't agree. I'm off to study in a couple of days, and while doing my homework, I've hit an idea put forth by the study guide that I'm having an issue with. One of the questions referring to Habakkuk's complaining to God is: Habakkuk openly complained to the Lord. Do you think he was right to question God?

    My answer is no, it is never right to complain or question God. To complain is to suggest God is doing something wrong. To ask a question is fine, but to question God's actions in any given situation is to suggest that He needs to take counsel from us rather than the other way around.

    There are review notes after the study, and the review notes suggest that it is fine to express doubts (presumably about God's decisions) to God. I suppose they take this view because many writers (Job, Jeremiah, Habakkuk) expressed doubts, so I guess the writers of the guide equate descriptions of complaining as prescriptions. They state that "even Jesus asked God 'Why, oh, why hast thou forsaken me?'", and in the context of the review, I believe they are intimating that like Habakkuk, Jesus also expressed doubt, complaint. Now, I know that there is a view out there that Christ's utterance of those words points to Psalm 22, the prophecy of His crucifixion, pointing to His position as the Messiah. That is what I tend to lean towards.

    I guess my question is can anybody add their thoughts to this? I'm just trying to work through this. As Christ was sinless, and as I believe that complaining is a sin, I, therefore, cannot agree that it was a complaint. What say you guys?

    Sorry for the long post. Thanks for any replies. :)
     
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  2. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Look at the word definition: to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault:

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/complain

    I wouldn't be afraid to suggest it is appropriate to find some of that emotion in Him for it.

    .. but ultimately, what does it matter? I don't really understand why you think there is some sort of problem.

    Maybe it is best if you can explain why you think that complaining is a sin?
     
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    A complaint in scripture occurs when the person wants to go back to his old life and makes attempts to do so:

    Exodus 14:11They said to Moses, "Was it because there are no graves in Egypt that you brought us into the wilderness to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt?

    And the consequences are grave:

    1 Corinthians 10:10And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.

    So no, Jesus didn't complain.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    There is was somewhere I think in Lamentations where God wanted to be called on His promises. So I think there is a difference between complaining about how things are not going as we'd like and crying out to God saying that He promised this and holding on to His promises by questioning where the fulfillment is. I'll agree that Jesus was quoting Psalms 22 and note that in the Psalm he did not end up being forsaken:

    Psalms 22:22-24 I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: 23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
     
  5. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Jesus complained a few times. At the wedding, a few times with the disciples, and at the cross.

    It just shows, he's still very much a human person or at least, had problems overcoming the limitations of the physical existence.
     
  6. Viren

    Viren Contributor

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    The sins of the world were placed on him at that moment so he was probably surprised by the lack of connection. Sins had hidden God's face.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  7. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    I think the problem comes in when assuming that complaining means that God is doing something wrong. We might complain without believing that God is the cause of the source of our complaint. Complaint could even be seen as imploring God to step in and put something right.
     
  8. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Imo when Christ was dying he was separated from Father , the prophecy was not pointless because if it had nothing to do with what he was feeling right now then the prophecy could be something stupid instead like "I like food " .
    All prophecy is always pointing out to something , situation or emotion , therefore he said what was true he was forsaken on Cross because he was instead of us tortured so he was tortured like person would be that includes the separation .

    Isaiah 53:10 King James Version (KJV)
    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    John 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
     
  9. Acoustics4me

    Acoustics4me New Member

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  10. Acoustics4me

    Acoustics4me New Member

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    Yes, I agree that complaining and asking God to fulfil his promises are not the same thing. :)

    Thanks for your reply.
     
  11. Acoustics4me

    Acoustics4me New Member

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    Still processing your reply. Thank you for it. :)
     
  12. betterorworse

    betterorworse Active Member

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    I don't find any Prophets God has chosen to be major or minor.
     
  13. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It is really interesting to see that not only did God look away, but the wrath of God was turned upon Him .. and to properly understand what the wrath of God is.

    John the Baptist said "the one who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" .. this is the consequence of God's righteous indignation having come upon someone who does not do righteousness and truth (do not be surprised if the world hates you). This happens as a result of people not doing truthfully when The Holy Spirit is ministering to them Matthew 18:20, choosing to disobey The Holy Spirit (John 15:3-6).

    They exalt themselves wrongly against what is right because they do not love the truth more than sin (John 14:6). The Christian discipline requires us to crucify the flesh with it's passions so that we may always remain in Christ that way, but many take the broad road that leads to destruction.

    It is typical for people who get set in their ways (the old wineskins) to not receive new knowledge of the truth, and instead to wrongly dismiss and condemn a person who happens to be right - only on the basis that their beliefs, (or more aptly, their lack of respect for the messenger), do not permit them to receive new knowledge. Whenever a person does this, they are choosing to lie (James 3:14) because they have decided to dismiss the truth while also claiming to be right to do so. They have sold their soul to the father of lies (1 John 1:6-7).

    Do you see how religion can be a dangerous trap in that way? (eg: Matthew 6:23, James 3:1).

    .. So there was that wrath of God upon the religious leaders who were opposing Jesus, and because they were unable to accept that Jesus was right, they had to find some way to justify themselves despite the wrath of God convicting their conscience.

    In this way we can say that the wrath of God was completely poured out on Jesus and He gave up His life that the world might be saved - Zephaniah 1:17-18 .. but the gentiles are a long way off when they speak so as to say that Jesus' sacrifice satisfied the wrath of God.

    .. in that way, we also have to understand that the sins of the saints were atoned by the sacrifice through the perfection of repentance (Hebrews 10:26-27), not by taking the wrath of God from them (Matthew 26:35, John 3:36) .. and that begins a very interesting adventure to find that a lot of what Christianity teaches in fact isn't God's teaching at all (2 Peter 2:1-3), and that Christianity in fact is Judaism (Matthew 21:43).
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  14. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Complaining is "backbiting". It's what the Israelites did against Moses, and God, out in the desert. It's a thanklessness and disregard for the living God, and insulting, and throwing His blessings back in His face, and His servants faces like a spoiled child.

    Pouring out ones heart and despair amidst consternation, tears and pain, is NOT "complaining". It's what we are ADMONISHED to do. We are to PRAY about ALL things, especially when we are between a rock and a hard place and/or when our hearts are breaking, or when we do not understand what is going on, or when we need the strength to go on, etc.

    What you describe the men of God and Jesus Himself doing is pouring their hearts out to God.

    Not "complaining".

    "Complaining", as described above in the first paragraph, is "sin".

    Note: When Moses, in exasperation, asked God if he had "given birth" to these backbiting people he was leading, and asked God if He was trying to curse him via these backbiting people, he wasn't sinning. He was pouring out his justified exasperation to God. These people had conspired and tried to kill Moses at least once and were consistently murmuring against and complaining about Moses (and God).
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  15. betterorworse

    betterorworse Active Member

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    God is so wonderful.
    God isn't a creature.
    God is The Creator.
     
  16. Acoustics4me

    Acoustics4me New Member

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    The reference to minor does not refer to a lack of significance. It simply refers to the length of their prophetic writings.
     
  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Hi :wave: and welcome :)

    Yes.
    He was honest; he was saying how he felt instead of fuming inside but pretending that everything was fine. The lord knows, and sees, how we feel and what we are thinking anyway; so may as well be honest.
    He was saying that he didn't understand God - who does? Or why he didn't do something.
    Plenty of people - Abraham, the Psalmists, Job, the disciples, etc have questionned and complained to God.

    Maybe in an ideal world; but people do, and God is gracious and replies, reassures and helps us.

    Not really.
    It's saying that we don't like/understand what he is doing. Just because we might not like him doing something - like forgiving certain people, asking US to forgive certain people, give a financial gift, or calling us to go and work somewhere - it doesn't mean he is wrong to do it.

    We can say "Lord, why did you do/say/ask that of me?" without suggesting that God doesn't know what he's doing.
    Also, we need to be sure that something IS God's word, or action, and not just assume it must be because we agree with it.

    David often questioned God and, in his Psalms, was completely honest - about God having forgotten him, about wanting God's enemies to die etc etc. Yet David was called "a king after God's own heart."

    Exactly. It's being honest.
    If God told us to walk into an enemy's city and tell them to repent (Jonah), go with the nation into exile which was the Lord's judgement on their sin, and you were training to be a priest, (Ezekiel), preach repentance to a nation that wouldn't listen, (most of the prophets re Israel), roll away the stone covering the tomb of a dead man (Mary and Martha re Lazarus) and many other things - would you immediately and joyfully accept and obey, or wonder if , and why, God would really say such a thing?
    The Lord sees our thoughts and our hearts anyway; it's not right, or healthy, to suppress doubt, fear or anger and pretend we are fine with everything and fully understand God's ways.

    So you think that Jesus didn't really feel abandoned by God, crushed under the weight of the sin of the world; he only said it to fulfill a prophecy?
    Why would he do that?
    Wouldn't saying that you felt that God had abandoned you but not meaning or believing it, be dishonest? Jesus didn't sin.

    So, either it wasn't a complaint, or complaining isn't a sin.

    Jesus asked in the Garden of Gethsemane, that the cup of suffering should pass from him. Yes, he said "your will be done"; but as he had already predicted his death and said that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many - he knew God's will.
    So why did he ask that he might be spared it?
    I believe because he was human, and it is a human thing to want to avoid pain, rejection and an agonising death. I don't think he had that experience - of being distressed and sweating blood - for the fun of it.
     
  18. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Scripture could have left out the Christ's protestations. They didn't include them to show He was just like you and me, had weaknesses, but to show that His suffering was real.
     
  19. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You always have to keep the context in mind!
    As an example lots of Lamentations in the Psalms especially are written in a diatribe style. This teaching method makes it more like a discussion or debate. As such there can be lots of support for the wrong conclusion given before after or before and after the question, which should not be taken to show the wrong conclusion is right. The right answer and support will be given but often at the end.
    Paul used diatribes heavily in Romans so there you I can look to be a complaint when it is just supporting the wrong answer in the debate.
    Even further issue comes up when the imaginary discussion is found only in the way the words are spoken in the Greek and hard to translate. It is more theatrical, like two people are reading a script and would be best read just that way. You can have one part read by a big forceful person and the other read by a timid person with eventually the boastful person caving.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Hi and welcome. I agree, I think Jesus was not complaining. According to the Bible, God dwells/lives in Jesus. And perhaps, when Jesus was dying, he felt God left him (even if God didn’t do that) and that is why he asked the question. He probably didn’t expect it to happen. But as we know, God didn’t reject him, but raised him from the death.

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
    John 14:10
     
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