Was Jesus Born in a Cave?

[Standing Up]

Have you heard the story that Messiah was born in a cave? This myth originally sources to the Mithras tale and is picked up in the Protoevangelium of James (PoJ).

CHAPTER 18
(1) And he [Joseph] found a cave and led her [Mary] there and
stationed his sons to watch her, ...
-PoJ-

There's that false tradition and then there's scripture. Do you think Jesus ate the Passover with His apostles in a cave or a guestchamber? It is the same word for where He was born.

Lk. 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn (katalyma).

Lk. 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber (katalyma), where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mk. 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Indeed, they had a word for cave or den

Jn. 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave (spelaion), and a stone lay upon it.

which, had they wanted to convey the place of birth as a cave, like the scripture-contradicting PoJ, they could have said so.

So, no, we also reject the false information from the PoJ that Messiah was born in a cave, and instead, believe what scripture says; that is, He was born in a sort of room in a house. He starts His life in humble circumstances and ends it that way.

 

[Rick Otto]

If I had no experience reading thread titles, I might add He was not born standing up.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[seashale76]

Your information regarding Mithraism is actually incorrect. There were two very different types of Mithraism in the world- separated by time, culture, and geography. The Persian form of Mithraism and the Roman mystery religion of Mithraism aren't the same thing. The older Persian version didn't believe that Mithras was born in a cave. Most commonly, it was claimed that Mithras sprung from a rock. The latter form of Mithraism only came about in Rome AFTER the establishment of Christianity. You know, the one people erroneously point to so as to make their claims of the Christians copying them when it was, in fact, the other way around. Do your research. If there are similarities, it is because the followers of Mithras copied the Christians.


You've been perpetuating this falsity on this website for quite some time.

 

[Standing Up]

Your information regarding Mithraism is actually incorrect. There were two very different types of Mithraism in the world- separated by time, culture, and geography. The Persian form of Mithraism and the Roman mystery religion of Mithraism aren't the same thing. The older Persian version didn't believe that Mithras was born in a cave. Most commonly, it was claimed that Mithras sprung from a rock. The latter form of Mithraism only came about in Rome AFTER the establishment of Christianity. You know, the one people erroneously point to so as to make their claims of the Christians copying them when it was, in fact, the other way around. Do your research. If there are similarities, it is because the followers of Mithras copied the Christians.


You've been perpetuating this falsity on this website for quite some time.

So, do you still believe Jesus was born in a cave?

As to Mithras, I'm looking at Justin Martyr and the PoJ that maintained Jesus was born in a cave. To which Mithras account were they considering?

Chapter LXX.—So also the mysteries of http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxx.html?highlight=mithras#highlightMithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.

“And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without 234 hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah’s22102210 The text here has ταῦτα ποιῆσαι ὁμοίως. Maranus suggests ᾽Ησαίου for ποιῆσαι; and so we have translated. words?22112211 Justin says that the priests of Mithras imitated all the words of Isaiah about to be quoted; and to prove it, is content with a single example, namely, the precepts of righteousness, which they were wont to relate to him, as in these words of Isaiah: “He who walks in righteousness,” etc. Justin omitted many other passages, as easy and obvious. For since Mithras is the same as fire, it manifestly answers to the fire of which Isaiah speaks. And since Justin reminded them who are initiated, that they are said to be initiated by Mithras himself, it was not necessary to remind them that the words of Isaiah are imitated in this: “You shall see the King with glory.” Bread and water are referred to by Isaiah: so also in these mysteries of Mithras, Justin testifies that bread and a cup of water are placed before them (Apol. i.).—Maranus. For they22122212 i.e., the devils. contrived that the words of righteousness be quoted also by them.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxx.html?highlight=mithras#fnf_viii.iv.lxx-p4.1
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxx.html

 

[Standing Up]

Maybe I should have made this a poll.

Do folks still think Christ was born in a cave (PoJ) or in a guest-chamber/inn (scripture)?

 

[98cwitr]

Never heard of this cave theory...

 

[Rick Otto]

I heard "manger", but I seem to remember seeing a cave more often in my RC upbringing.It doesn't matter so much to me which it realy was as it does what people make of it.

 

[Cappadocious]

How about what modern secular historians think?

 

[Standing Up]

I'd guess that Eastern Orthodox and to a lesser degree Roman Catholics adhere more strictly to the cave belief because they embrace the Protoevangelium of James as a valid source of inspired teachings more than Protestants. Protestants view the tradition manger, animals, "inn" as more accurate.

My point is simply to show that the word for guest-chamber is the same as regards both where Jesus was born and where the Last Supper was held.

So, either one believes Jesus was born in a cave and the Last Supper was held in a cave because its the same word, or one rejects the PoJ with its Mithras overtones and adheres to what scripture says (born and held Last Supper in a guest-chamber).

 

[Standing Up]

How about what modern secular historians think?

What do they think? Is the same word for where Christ was born and held the Last Supper changed for them?

 

[bornofGod888]

If I read one more post in GT, then I might go and live in a cave myself...

 

[winslow]

"There's that false tradition and then there's scripture. Do you think Jesus ate the Passover with His apostles in a cave or a guestchamber? It is the same word for where He was born."


There was no room in the inn (katalyma) for Joseph and Mary so they were given space in a manger. Caves were often used to house animals so it may very well have been a cave.

 

[Harry3142]

Standing Up-

While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luke 2:6-7,NIV)

We see movies where Mary is shown as just arriving at an inn, only to be turned away. Then she is forced to use a stable that is a seperate structure in order to deliver Jesus. However, that is not what Scripture itself tells us. Christmas cards and movies notwithstanding, Mary had been in Bethlehem for awhile by the time of Jesus' birth.

Joseph and Mary had arrived at the inn in all likelihood a few months before she gave birth to Jesus. But the inns of that day were not Holiday Inns or Hyatt Regency hotels. A coin of the realm permitted the people a space only the size of their sleeping mats (about 3'X6' maximum). So when it came time for Mary to deliver Jesus into the world, there simply wasn't enough room for her to do so in the 'people area' of that inn.

Fortunately, the inns of that day, as well as the other homes, were split level structures. The upper part was where the people, including patrons of an inn, stayed. It was accessible through a door located on that level. The lower part, normally accessed through a door on the opposite side of the structure, was intended for the patrons' animals, in order to protect them from the elements and prevent their being stolen.

But there was nothing to prevent people from literally sliding a woman who was about to give birth off the upper level of the structure, and then repositioning her on the floor of the lower level. The distance between them was short enough so that men could transfer Mary to that lower level. Because the lower level was intended for animals of a fairly large size, it needed to be roomier than the upper level, so she had the room she needed in order to give birth, and the other women had the room they needed in order to aid her in the birth of Jesus.

 

[Cappadocious]

What do they think? Is the same word for where Christ was born and held the Last Supper changed for them?

I mean about the Mithra/Mitra/Mithras connection.

 

[Standing Up]

I mean about the Mithra/Mitra/Mithras connection.

Evidently there were two strands, an earlier one from Persia and later one from Rome, that intertwined. I'd guess Justin Martyr picks up on the intertwining. Not sure it really matters though which one, but rather just the fact JM knew about it and compared it at various points (cave, priests, mysteries, flesh/blood).

 

[Standing Up]

"There's that false tradition and then there's scripture. Do you think Jesus ate the Passover with His apostles in a cave or a guestchamber? It is the same word for where He was born."


There was no room in the inn (katalyma) for Joseph and Mary so they were given space in a manger. Caves were often used to house animals so it may very well have been a cave.

The idea of a cave birth was maintained from PoJames (see OP) through Justin Martyr and by Origen and still today.

"But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxviii.html?highlight=manger#highlightmanger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxviii.html


"With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.i.lii.html?highlight=cave#highlightcave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes. And this sight is greatly talked of in surrounding places, even among the enemies of the faith, it being said that in this cave was born that Jesus who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.i.lii.html

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up-

While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luke 2:6-7,NIV)

We see movies where Mary is shown as just arriving at an inn, only to be turned away. Then she is forced to use a stable that is a seperate structure in order to deliver Jesus. However, that is not what Scripture itself tells us. Christmas cards and movies notwithstanding, Mary had been in Bethlehem for awhile by the time of Jesus' birth.

Joseph and Mary had arrived at the inn in all likelihood a few months before she gave birth to Jesus. But the inns of that day were not Holiday Inns or Hyatt Regency hotels. A coin of the realm permitted the people a space only the size of their sleeping mats (about 3'X6' maximum). So when it came time for Mary to deliver Jesus into the world, there simply wasn't enough room for her to do so in the 'people area' of that inn.

Fortunately, the inns of that day, as well as the other homes, were split level structures. The upper part was where the people, including patrons of an inn, stayed. It was accessible through a door located on that level. The lower part, normally accessed through a door on the opposite side of the structure, was intended for the patrons' animals, in order to protect them from the elements and prevent their being stolen.

But there was nothing to prevent people from literally sliding a woman who was about to give birth off the upper level of the structure, and then repositioning her on the floor of the lower level. The distance between them was short enough so that men could transfer Mary to that lower level. Because the lower level was intended for animals of a fairly large size, it needed to be roomier than the upper level, so she had the room she needed in order to give birth, and the other women had the room they needed in order to aid her in the birth of Jesus.

Sounds reasonable to me. I get the manger and animals and lowly and close/attached proximity. I don't get the cave idea.