Was Jesus a Jew?

[adam332]

The lineage demands tell us, no. The spiritual demands tell us, yes.

I have iterated many times, for those placing any importance on bloodline for the fulfillment of some special purpose to people of a specific lineage, that there is no bloodline significance in God's eyes. It is only the heart that determines whether someone is an Israelite, a Jew, or Abraham's seed. Man looks at the earthly fulfillment and importance of the flesh, but God has never been a respector of persons and sees only the heart.
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Mat. 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Here we see that Jesus in not connected with the bloodlines of Joseph, but instead is connected through whom His mother married. To be precise, Christ was not even born while they were married, but simply espoused(engaged).

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Notice, this passage indicates that Joseph’s father was Heli, and not Jacob as Matthew records. The reason believed is that Heli was Mary’s father and that this lineage is simply recording the inheritance as was passed down to Joseph. This is in keeping Israelite tradition, when a man bears no sons the inheritance passes down to the son in law of His first born daughter.

Also notice that it indicates that Christ was only believed to be Joseph’s son, “as was supposed”.

This all said, Jesus has no recorded maternal bloodline which establishes him as a natural Jew. It was assumed that His real father was Joseph and therefore, was never questioned. And it is assumed that Heli was Mary's father.

Jesus was a Jew/Israelite/Abraham’s seed by the standards of God, but not by those lineage standards of men.

 

[Rainbow.]

Jesus was a Jew

 

[Roald]

I think that you may have this a little confused. Judaism has always had matrilineal descent. The following is taken from a Jewish web site.

Who is a Jew?



A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?

This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.

Although all Jewish movements agree on these general principles, there are occasional disputes as to whether a particular individual is a Jew. Most of these disputes fall into one of two categories.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question.

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis. About Matrilineal Descent



Many people have asked me why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, when in all other things (tribal affiliation, priestly status, royalty, etc.) we use patrilineal descent.

The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.

In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [ie, the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (ie, a Jew).

On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews. Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.

jewfaq.org "Judaism 101"

 

[Roald]

Also, Matthew 1:24-25 would indicate that they were married before Jesus was born.

 

[sojeru]

Hi Adam, you are very wrong to say that Jewishness is recognized by the father.
In Judaism Jewishness is recognized through the mother and tribal lineage through the father.
If Jesus had no earthly father- he has no earthly claim to the throne of David- since he has no lineage to David.
Since His Mother was Jewish so was Jesus Jewish- but no earthly father, no tribal lineage- no claim to David's throne. Yous ee the puzzle you and others have put yourselves in with the way you read the bible?
Jesus earthly father was indeed Josef, however, there is a mystery as to how Josef is actually Jesus' father.
Matthew nor Luke is to be read literally. The only book in the Gospels that is tobe read as it is said is Mark, not Matthew, not Luke, not John--- all of these books say something else even if they do have a connection in the stories.
These writters did not write their books just for repitition- they wrote their books to"SHOW" something other than what was shown already.
In other words, they wanted to show a deeper level into the reading. Not LITERALLY.

If Jesus only had a Jewish father and no Jewish mother, then he would have to convert if he wanted to be Jewish. You have much of your information mistaken about Judaism and about Jesus.
If you want to get your information correct, I suggest you study Orthodox Judaism and this will shed great light on the nature of Jesus.

if you see no authority in Orthodox Judaism as to shed light on Messiah Jesus, then I also suggest that you read Matthew 23:1-3 ( i will get into what else it means later)

Antonio

 

[USAF]

My opinion is that Jesus’ Lineage was Jewish, but he was neither Jew nor gentile himself, for he was conceived of the holy Spirit, he was created, he was the Tabernacle of the everlasting Almighty God. He was the Word made Flesh, God with us EMANUEL

 

[adam332]

Roald,
"Also, Matthew 1:24-25 would indicate that they were married before Jesus was born."

Easton’s Bible Dictionary

Betroth

To promise "by one’s truth." Men and women were betrothed when they were engaged to be married. This usually took place a year or more before marriage. From the time of betrothal the woman was regarded as the lawful wife of the man to whom she was betrothed #De 28:30 #Jud 14:2,8 Mt 1:18-21 The term is figuratively employed of the spiritual connection between God and his people #Ho 2:19,20
________
________

Espouse
#2Sa 3:14 to betroth. The espousal was a ceremony of betrothing, a formal agreement between the parties then coming under obligation for the purpose of marriage. Espousals are in the East frequently contracted years before the marriage is celebrated. It is referred to as figuratively illustrating the relations between God and his people #Jer 2:2 Mt 1:18 2Co 11:2

 

[adam332]

Alright guys I was wrong...see I can say it. The Jewishness is established from the mother. I learn something new everyday...thanks for calling me on it. I guess it was assumed by me simply because the lineage as recorded throughout the scriptures being from father to son. I called out-of-state to my former pastor who has a PHD in theology and was a Rabbi before His conversion, and whose father was a Rabbi and grandfather, etc....

Interestingly he wasn't home but his wife was and by chance I asked her if she knew, "paternal or maternal?". To which I learned something else...my former pastors blonde haired blue eyed wife's mother was Jewish and therefore she was considered such as well.

All that said...the lineage as recorded in Luke is believed to follow Mary's bloodline through Heli which is supposed to be her father. Again the scripture does not say, though and of course Mat. simply records that of Joseph who was not his real father at all. This turn of events has made my presentation somewhat altered...but even if we are to assume that Heli was the father of Mary, we see the emphasis is put on the direction of Joseph in both accounts, presumebly the one in Luke follows the inheritance and not the bloodline...since obviously Joseph did not have two fathers. For that matter it could be assumed that Jacob was mary's father instead of Heli. In any event we have no clearcut scripture which follows the bloodline of Mary. Only one which follows the inheritance and one that follows His adoptive fathers bloodline.

 

[sojeru]

you are right to say that there no clear cut anything in Bible about Mary's lineage, however- she was in fact a levite- how and why? well do you not notice that her cousin is Elishava (Elizabeth) who is married to Zezharyah a levite? And levites are not allowed to marry outside the tribe- a levite must marry a levite.
And notice Jesus' cousin- he was in fact a levite priest as well, yes JOHN THE IMMERSER was a levite priest of the wilderness sadducees ( at qumran area- the essenes).

Now that this is said- if Jesus has the right to claim David's throne- where is the father from the tribe of Judah?
A child that is adopted has no right to claim the throne- but he does have the right to claim a dependancy (money or property that should be given to him)- in TRUTH, the child OF Josef has more right than Jesus to claim David's throne.Why? because Josef is not his father. So James would have to ascend to the throne.
However, IF JOSEF is in fact the father of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit intervened and grabbed the seed from Josef's loins and put it inside of Mariam (Mary) would not this conception be of the Holy Spirit?
And would not Jesus have the right to ascend to the throne of David?
YES! He can ascend to the throne ONLY if his natural father has the right to the throne!

shalom u'bracha
Antonio

 

[adam332]

Interesting, let's see....Luke and Matthew both record the lineage back to Juda the son of Jacob not Levi. So if Mary was a Levite and one of these is supposed to be Mary's lineage then shouldn't they be traceable back to Levi son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham?

Now you said they were not allowed to marry outside the tribe of Levites, does that mean it NEVER happened? And if it did what would happen to them...wouldn't it mean that they simply couldn't EVER marry back in? And if Mary was a Levite...then she could only marry Joseph if he was one as well? Correct me if I wrong in my thinking?

BTW...since I am asking you question...do you believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

 

[sojeru]

hi Adam

Interesting, let's see....Luke and Matthew both record the lineage back to Juda the son of Jacob not Levi. So if Mary was a Levite and one of these is supposed to be Mary's lineage then shouldn't they be traceable back to Levi son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham?

that is exactly what I am telling you- none of the lineages have to do with Mary, not any one of them

Now you said they were not allowed to marry outside the tribe of Levites, does that mean it NEVER happened? And if it did what would happen to them...wouldn't it mean that they simply couldn't EVER marry back in? And if Mary was a Levite...then she could only marry Joseph if he was one as well? Correct me if I wrong in my thinking?

OY, didnt you say that you have a pastor is was once a Rabbi?
Im wondering now what you learned from him.
I thought of you as at least being some what knowledgeable- obviously not.
listen, the levite men are allowed only to marry levite women. The levite women can marry anyone they wish from whatever tribe.

BTW...since I am asking you question...do you believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

If I am able to post on the Chr1stian only section of christian forums that should already answer your question.

shalom
Antonio

 

[Suzannah]

Wow. I am thrilled to read this thread because I never knew this was even a "question". I am thrilled to come here and learn! Thanks sojeru, adam, Roald and eveyrone for your posts. I have learned a lot today!

 

[adam332]

It is hard to appear knowledgeable when someone contradicts themselves.

You said...
"And levites are not allowed to marry outside the tribe- a levite must marry a levite."

Then you said...

"The levite women can marry anyone they wish from whatever tribe."

Make up your mind...please. What is it going to an orthodox Jewish church has taught you?

You also said...

"If I am able to post on the Chr1stian only section of christian forums that should already answer your question."

No not really...there are many Jews who enter forums they are not allowed in, to harrass Christians. Please answer the question. Do you proclaim Jesus Christ son of Mary to be your personal Lord and savior or do you not?

It would be my guess from some of your comments that you do not see Jesus as having divine authority and being one with God. You question His right to claim the throne of David. Any Christian who believes in the divine nature of Jesus will suredly realize that Christ can claim the throne because of that divinity regardless of bloodline...he is the true embodiment of Israel and all who came from it. Did not David and his men partake of the holy bread yet it was forbidden. Did not Christ tell Moses on the mount that thou shalt not murder, yet, He has instructed His people to kill unGodly nations? That which is divine or under direct divine authority can overide such instruction. He is not bound by that which binds us for His authority is everlasting and by Him all things were created.

 

[Roald]

Roald,
"Also, Matthew 1:24-25 would indicate that they were married before Jesus was born."

Easton’s Bible Dictionary

Betroth

To promise "by one’s truth." Men and women were betrothed when they were engaged to be married. This usually took place a year or more before marriage. From the time of betrothal the woman was regarded as the lawful wife of the man to whom she was betrothed #De 28:30 #Jud 14:2,8 Mt 1:18-21 The term is figuratively employed of the spiritual connection between God and his people #Ho 2:19,20
________
________

Espouse
#2Sa 3:14 to betroth. The espousal was a ceremony of betrothing, a formal agreement between the parties then coming under obligation for the purpose of marriage. Espousals are in the East frequently contracted years before the marriage is celebrated. It is referred to as figuratively illustrating the relations between God and his people #Jer 2:2 Mt 1:18 2Co 11:2

I concede on this point. I put up this reply too quickly. The bible version that I read made it seem that they were married before Jesus' birth, but I recall that that was left up in the air.

 

[sojeru]

lol Adam,
did I contradict or just not completely explain myself as to think that you had knowledge of how the levites married?
yes, at face value- just compare the two it will a slight contradiction- DEPENDING ON THE WAY IT IS READ!
now, I said that the levites can only marry levites.
I KNEW and as do all Jews that when I say that to them- we all know that we only speak of the men.
So I can tell a Jew during a religious conversation, "you know that a levite can only marry a levite?" he will say "ofcourse, this is the only way that HE can be allowed to take office in the temple?"
why would he respond with such an answer- it is twofold- Levite MEN NOT WOMEN are allowed to have office in the temple, and this command was only given to the levite men!
If you knew bible this wouldnt be hard for you to decipher.
So, it is you that have the lack in understanding and knowledge. I have brought up no contradiction.
And as to the statement you made that i need to make up my mind- i tell you that you need your mind molded correctly into what is scripture and truth before you respond in arrogant ignorance.
Your confidence can be broken like a twig while I stand firm in my confidence because I have indeed studied.

Shalom

 

[Atkin]

A child that is adopted has no right to claim the throne- but he does have the right to claim a dependancy (money or property that should be given to him)- in TRUTH, the child OF Josef has more right than Jesus to claim David's throne.Why? because Josef is not his father. So James would have to ascend to the throne.
However, IF JOSEF is in fact the father of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit intervened and grabbed the seed from Josef's loins and put it inside of Mariam (Mary) would not this conception be of the Holy Spirit?
And would not Jesus have the right to ascend to the throne of David?
YES! He can ascend to the throne ONLY if his natural father has the right to the throne!

shalom u'bracha
Antonio

Classic jewish fables .

Jesus does NOT need to prove a thing to ascend any throne.

Who are you to speculate on what and how Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

God's actions take place irrespective of human theories.

Focus on accepting Christ and getting more Jews to accept Christ than on

how sperm got from Joseph to Mary.

 

[Atkin]

Jewish lineage alone does not gurantee favor in the sight of God. Jewish lineage could deceive

people into many errors. Jesus defined himself as an Israelite from the tribe of Judah.. what more

do we need. Revelation 5:5 is VERY CLEAR he is descended from the tribe of Judah period.

Revelation 22:16 States his lineage as well.

The important points are His ministry and what humans should learn about how to seek God.

One thing for sure is that Jesus never taught animal use in worship in false temples as part of his ministry.

Jesus never involved His Jewish followers in the type of animal blood activities that

some orthodox Jewish people are trying to deceive others into following.

 

[adam332]

He appears to be a non-Christian Jew, who has been asked point blank to answer if he proclaims Jesus or not. He refuses. Which Christian here would refuse to acknowledge that? There are forums for you, please go there.

 

[Atkin]

It would be my guess from some of your comments that you do not see Jesus as having divine authority and being one with God. You question His right to claim the throne of David. Any Christian who believes in the divine nature of Jesus will suredly realize that Christ can claim the throne because of that divinity regardless of bloodline...he is the true embodiment of Israel and all who came from it. Did not David and his men partake of the holy bread yet it was forbidden. Did not Christ tell Moses on the mount that thou shalt not murder, yet, He has instructed His people to kill unGodly nations? That which is divine or under direct divine authority can overide such instruction. He is not bound by that which binds us for His authority is everlasting and by Him all things were created.

Some Jews do not believe Christ spoke to Moses on the Mount regarding the commandments.

They have their own beliefs in that regard.


Christ was annointed by God... Christ did not ascend to heaven BECAUSE he was

the son of Joseph.

Who is James?. He was not annointed of God IRRESPECTIVE of who His father was.

Christ did not sit at the right side of God merely because he was Jewish.

How does God determine who sits on the Throne?

 

[cyberwing]

Sojeru, if you would like someone who could show you the lineage and the Biblical support for it both old and new testament, might I suggest you go to Zola Levitt's website? He has done a wonderful study that makes it very clear our Messiah, Yeshua or Jesus was indeed of the line of David but THROUGH a woman (Mary). (Which was foretold by the prophets.) The seed of the woman would crush the serpent under his heel....(Forgive me I don't remember chapter and verse very well but it is a fascinating study!) Joseph was Jesus' stepfather and this is why in the New Testament MARY's lineage is traced whereas most Jewish geneologies in the Torah ignore the female lines.
Zola Levitt shows that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah (where the secular world gets the word Jew) Jesus was the FULFILLMENT of the prophecies, this is why we live in the age of Grace. One must stand back and look at the WHOLE puzzle to see it more clearly. I would like to recommend Zola Levitt AND Yacov Ramsel. They are both very wise and incredibly blessed men of God whom HE has given the gift of teaching. Without them so much of the Bible would not have made sense, but with them, they have opened my understanding to so much more by understanding the Hebrew people and traditions, the Bible sudden begins to make perfect sense! It is why many of us embrace the Jewish people even if they should hate us because they are HIS people!
May Our Precious Lord bless your journey of discovery! I hope I have not offended in any way but helped in some small way. If I have offended please let me apologize for I do not intend to and I ask you to forgive me.
Shalom to you!
~Cyberwing