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Was it the translators?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    If he was born of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the 8th day, then it logically follows that he was born of at least one Hebrew parent, does it not? I cannot see the purpose of the objections to the translation - all that is being argued, effectively, is 'was his other parent a Jew?'. Does it really matter?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  2. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    My Church's *official* designation for us is Hebrew Catholics. This is because they think if they use the word Jew or Jewish it will confuse people into thinking we are practicing Rabbinical Judaism, which rejected Yeshua as the Messiah. However, among ourselves, we debate this term. An awful lot of us, especially those of us who are highly observant, feel that it is insulting -- it's like telling us we are not Jews and how dare you. I started out identifying as a Hebrew Catholic as that was the official term, but it got under my skin. Most of my Catholic Friends who are Jews prefer "Jewish Catholic" or "Catholic Jew" or "Messianic Catholic Jew." So I decided, I'm going to go with what I'm comfortable with, rather than what is official. I think that with Messianic Jewish Catholic, no one will assume I'm practicing Rabbinical Judaism.
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    It was at one time, but it has been adopted by Israelites.
     
  4. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I'm feeling very comfortable with it.
     
  5. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Was this other parent a Hebrew? It was not i that was objecting to translations of Philippians 3:5 (including the NJB) in which Paul says he was "a Hebrew of Hebrews" or "a Hebrew born of Hebrews" (HCSB). It was Open Heart that thought perhaps Paul should have said "a Jew of Jews" in agreement with the gentile world's nomenclature instead of "a Hebrew of Hebrews".

    "
    We were called" ... as if pagan gentiles should have the final word what God's Chosen People should refer to themselves today (i.e. "Jews").
    My point is that the word "Jew" is a slang word first introduced into the world's vocabulary by pagan gentiles during Babylonian times and further perpetuated by gentiles during the Holocaust.

    Paul's reference as a "Hebrew of Hebrews" (accurate translations) is proof that the word "Hebrew" was used by God's Chosen People long after the Exodus. So, Open Heart is wrong if she thinks "Jews" is a proper name for God's Chosen People should be acceptable when "Judean" was corrupted by pagan gentiles when she says "We were called ..."


    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  6. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Thanks for the correction :)
     
  7. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I thought I already corrected this? Yes at one time it was a word applied to us by foreigners, but NOW we have adopted it and we proudly call ourselves Jews. There remains no reason for you not to use the word Jew. The Bible uses the word Jew. It is is a real word.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    These types of verses have bothered me for quite some time. Let's take a more analytical look.


    And the (Jewish) Jews' (Jewish feast of) passover was at hand, and Jesus (a Jewish Jew) went up to (the Jewish city of) Jerusalem (where the rest of the Jewish Jews were gathering). John (a Jewish Jew) 2:13 (writing to Jewish Jews)

    Now the (Jewish) Jews' (Jewish) feast of tabernacles was at hand. John(a Jewish Jew) 7:2 (writing to Jewish Jews)

    And the (Jewish) passover, a (Jewish) feast of the (Jewish) Jews, was nigh John (a Jewish Jew) 6:4 (writing to Jewish Jews)

    After this there was a (Jewish) feast of the (Jewish) Jews; ..and Yeshua (a Jewish Jew) went up to (The Jewish city of) Jerusalem. (where the rest of the Jewish Jews were gathering) John (a Jewish Jew) 5:1 (writing to Jewish Jews)

    Now it's much more clear to me.
     
  9. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    As distinct from the Samaritan and Essene, and other minor groups' same feasts. There is no mystery here at all.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Other minor groups of what, Jews?

    A little later, Josephus gave a detailed account of the Essenes in The Jewish War (c. 75 CE), with a shorter description in Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 CE) and The Life of Flavius Josephus (c. 97 CE). Claiming first hand knowledge, he lists the Essenoi as one of the three sects of Jewish philosophy[7] alongside the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

    The Essenes were actually a major sect of Jews; but there were many other minor sects of Jews.

    Do you believe that John's books were directed to the Samaritans?
     
  11. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    We have, today, a similar problem in Judaism between the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox at one end of the spectrum and, for example, Reform Judaism, which the other two groups would not accept as being Jews, in a 'denominational' context, even though the individuals may be Jews. The same can be seen in Christianity, but to a much wider degree - some parts of Christianity would not regard other parts as Christians, by any stretch of the imagination and vice versa!

    Re John - not just to the Samaritans, but with them in mind, certainly.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    When Yahshua addressed the Pharisees and the Sadducees; (the other two major sects besides the Essenes) he addessed them quite specifically, by name. He recognized them distinctly from the Jews in general. He did not throw them into a blanket title of "Jews," along with the Essenes, and all of the many other sects.

    From where was Yahshua's Preisthood passed to him, under Yahweh's law? Was it of the Levitical Priesthood?
     
  13. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    He spoke, separately, about the Samaritans. We only know what the writers, wrote. He must have spoken about a number of groups and sects, but those comments, or discussions, are not available to us, along with the vast majority of what he said whilst on this earth. We actually know very little about him, amazing as that may seem. The writers obviously felt it necessary to make a distinction between the majority of 'Temple Jews', and their role in Judaism, as against the sects that are hardly mentioned, as such.

    This is the only scenario that explains the OP question.

    His Priesthood was not of the Levitical line, as we know from the Psalms and from the letter to the Hebrews.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  14. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Did he acknowledge them as a sect, of the Jew's?
    Where are the essenes mentioned?
    I think Roman rule should be taken into consideration here. What fell under a Judaism, as a sect? This would have been extremely important to maintain a legal status in ancient Rome. As well as maintain the exemption from idols, which Rome extended to Jew's. Therefore sectarian practices, could maintain legal religious status within the Empire? A very serious issue in ancient Rome.
     
  15. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In my understanding the words Pharisee and Sadducee refer to particular understandings of Judaism. In the case of the Pharisees there were probably 5000 to 6000 in the first century with all of them being rabbis. Although most of them presided over a synagogue, the actual people in the congregation would have called themselves simply Jews not Pharisees.
     
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    "The Sadducees controlled the temple and its rituals, but the Pharisees controlled the synagogues."

    Source: The Sadducees - Jewish Literature in New Testament Times (Bible History Online)
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Of the various factions that emerged under Hasmoneanrule, three are of particular interest: the Pharisees, Sadducees, andEssenes.

    The Pharisees
    The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah. The Torah, or Written Law, was akin to the U.S. Constitution in the sense that it set down a series of laws that were open to interpretation. The Pharisees believed that God also gave Moses the knowledge of what these laws meant and how they should be applied. This oral tradition was codified and written down roughly three centuries later in what is known as the Talmud.

    The Pharisees also maintained that an after-life existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.

    Pharisees were in a sense blue-collar Jews who adhered to the tenets developed after the destruction of the Temple; that is, such things as individual prayer and assembly in synagogues.

    The Sadducees
    The Sadducees were elitists who wanted to maintain the priestly caste, but they were also liberal in their willingness to incorporate Hellenism into their lives, something the Pharisees opposed. The Sadducees rejected the idea of the Oral Law and insisted on a literal interpretation of the Written Law; consequently, they did not believe in an after life, since it is not mentioned in the Torah. The main focus ofSadducee life was rituals associated with the Temple.

    The Sadducees disappeared around 70 A.D., after thed estruction of the Second Temple. None of the writings of the Sadducees has survived, so the little we know about them comes from their Pharisaic opponents.

    These two "parties" served in the Great Sanhedrin, a kind of Jewish Supreme Court made up of 71 members whose responsibility was to interpret civil and religious laws.

    The Essenes
    A third faction, the Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the other two. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. (HARK!'s note: Sounds Like Yahshua to me.) They moved out of Jerusalem and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy. (HARK!'s note: Sounds much like John the Immerser to me.)

    The Essenes are particularly interesting to scholars because they are believed to be an offshoot of the group that lived in Qumran, near the Dead Sea. In 1947, a Bedouin shepherd stumbled into a cave containing various ancient artifacts and jars containing manuscripts describing the beliefs of the sect and events of the time.

    The most important documents, often only parchment fragments that had to be meticulously restored, were the earliest known copies of the Old Testament. The similarity of the substance of the material found in the scrolls to that in the modern scriptures has confirmed the authenticity of the Bible used today.

    Pharisees, Sadducees & Essenes
     
  18. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is also worth noting that while the High Priest chaired the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees dominated it and opposed the High Priest at every turn. In fact the High Priest was widely regarded as a "quisling" in the hands of the Romans.
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Hebrews 6:20
    King James Bible

    Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


    Ezra 7:1-4
    ...Zadok, The son of Ahitub, son of Amaryah, son of Azaryah, son of Mirayoth,
    son of Zerachyah, son of Uzzi, son of Bukki, son of Avishua, son of Phineas




    (CLV) Num 25:11
    Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, reversed My fury from on the sons of Israel in his zeal- for My jealousy in their midst so I did not finish the sons of Israel in My jealousy.

    (CLV) Num 25:12
    Therefore say: Behold Me giving to him My covenant of peace;

    (CLV) Num 25:13
    it will be his and his seed's after him, the covenant of an eonian priesthood, in as much as he was zealous for his Elohim and made a propitiatory shelter over the sons of Israel.

    So who passed the Zadok Priesthood to Yahshua?
     
  20. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    What we have is in Genesis 15, Psalm 110 and Hebrews 7 the total of which is pretty much self explanatory.

    This question is outside the scope of the OP. Might be best if you started another thread if you want to pursue it, though there is little else in scripture.
     
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