Was Hitler being fair to the Jews ?

Was HItler being fair to the Jews?

  • Yes, that was fair.

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doubtingmerle

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?
 

doubtingmerle

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What even is this question?
I find it stunning that I need to ask this question. In another thread I stated that the Holocaust was unfair. Instead of agreeing with me, someone argued that there were two sides to the argument, that the Nazis did not think they were being unfair. I was stunned at his response, but hey, I can only respond to what I see. Do the people here agree with me that the Nazis were unfair, or are there people here that really think it is open to debate?
 
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Arc F1

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?

I think our soldiers already judged the nazis and punished them. The courts took care of the rest.
 
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Der Alte

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In 1958 as a 17 year old soldier, my first overseas assignment was to Dachau, Germany the site of the first German concentration/extermination camp. I had never heard it but soon learned.
Our barracks were the previous barracks of the SS prison guards. It still had built in rifle racks and the Nazi eagles were was over the entrance doors.. The eagles held a wreath in their talons but the swastika had been removed.
My room for about 6 months was immediately above the right wing of the eagle on the left.
I was a cook I worked on the ground floor of the "L" on the left.
All of the buildings were still standing. The prisoner barracks had been converted into housing for refugees.
There were two crematoriums. A small one with 2 ovens built before WWII and a larger one with 4 ovens built during WWII. In front of the large crematory were several 6 foot square filled in pits each with a stone saying "The grave of many thousands unknown."

upload_2020-12-30_15-13-45.png

Dachau was a place that reeked of death. I never saw any wildlife, birds, squirrels etc.
When the innocent prisoners arrived they were separated the elderly, children, infants and infirm were immediately taken to the gas chamber adjacent to the large crematory. The prisoners who were not killed said "The only escape from Dachau was "Den schornstein hoch"/"up the chimney." The others went to the barracks to become slave laborers and test subjects for medical experiments.
None of that sounds even remotely "fair."
 
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St_Worm2

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?
Hello Doubtingmerle, I wouldn't qualify the treatment of the Jews in WWII era Germany as "unfair", because the treatment that they received at the hand of Hitler and the Nazis was FAR worse than something that we could ever classify as simply being "unfair" (if Hitler had taxed his Jewish citizens at a higher rate than he did his non-Jewish citizens, ~that~ would be horribly "unfair"). However, "unfair" hardly encompasses the treatment that they received (quite frankly, groups that are made up of millions of upstanding, hardworking, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens and families are typically appreciated and protected by their governments, not murdered by them).

Perhaps the member who said that Hitler's treatment of the Jews was "fair" is a Holocaust denier (as there are some who do deny that it happened, as unbelievable as that sounds)?

BTW, what was his/her argument?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Occams Barber

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?



'Unfair' is the mother of all understatements.

OB
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?

Why is this a question that needs to be fielded by Christians in an apologetics forum? The answer to this will depend on a whole host of indiscernibles...that is, indiscernibles from a purely humanist viewpoint IF God and the Bible are supposed to somehow figure into this question. We should keep in mind that like brass tack statements, questions, too, are speech acts and come with a bevy of various contexts ...

So, if I were to simply answer this question you're posing from a Humanist standpoint, one that doesn't assume any real metaphysics behind it, then I'd say, "Sure, Hitler was a schmuck and definitely unfair to the Jewish people! What more is there to say?"

Hitler was also unfair to the Russian people and to gay people for that matter. And to gypsies.

And there you have it. The Humanist answer...
 
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Occams Barber

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Why is this a question that needs to be fielded by Christians in an apologetics forum? The answer to this will depend on a whole host of indiscernibles...that is, indiscernibles from a purely humanist viewpoint IF God and the Bible are supposed to somehow figure into this question. We should keep in mind that like brass tack statements, questions, too, are speech acts and come with a bevy of various contexts ...

So, if I were to simply answer this question you're posing from a Humanist standpoint, one that doesn't assume any real metaphysics behind it, then I'd say, "Sure, Hitler was a schmuck and definitely unfair to the Jewish people? What more is there to say?"

Hitler was also unfair to the Russian people and to gay people for that matter. And to gypsies.

And there you have it. The Humanist answer...



In a separate thread (why did adolf hitler become totally obsessed with killing all jews in the world?) I also had a couple of Christians telling me that the Holocaust was God's way of punishing the Jews for denying Jesus. They based this on their interpretation of the Bible.

Justifying the Holocaust appears to have a theological basis for (some) Christians.

As far as I know this theological point-of-view doesn't include Poles, Russians, Roma, homosexuals, the mentally ill etc. etc. - just Jews.

OB
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In a separate thread (why did adolf hitler become totally obsessed with killing all jews in the world?) I also had a couple of Christians telling me that the Holocaust was God's way of punishing the Jews for denying Jesus. They based this on their interpretation of the Bible.
Yes, I understand that. On my part, since I can't interview the Lord directly about this issue, I take a kind of agnostic position in relation to the possibility that those other Christians could be right. They could also be very wrong, but one would really need to delve quite deeply into the Bible en masse and in the way in which we each attempt to understanding it to see if the Bible itself (Old Testament included) has anything within it's pages that would support this position.

Justifying the Holocaust appears to have a theological basis for (some) Christians.
It does among a few Jewish rabbis as well (although my understanding is that this alternative view among a few Orthodox Rabbis isn't due to any rejection of Jesus per say but rather to what they think was a failure of the Jewish people to not live up to the covenants of the Torah.)

As far as I know this theological point-of-view doesn't include Poles, Russians, Roma, homosexuals, the mentally ill etc. etc. - just Jews.
Yeah, I'm sure the view you're citing above should be analyzed more stringently for any deeper inconsistencies which may inhabit its overall argumentation, especially since it's such a serious and egregioius historical issue.
 
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Occams Barber

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Yes, I understand that. On my part, since I can't interview the Lord directly about this issue, I take a kind of agnostic position in relation to the possibility that those other Christians could be right. They could also be very wrong, but one would really need to delve quite deeply into the Bible en masse and in the way in which we each attempt to understanding it to see if the Bible itself (Old Testament included) has anything within it's pages that would support this position.

Your answer left me somewhat shocked so I'd like to confirm that I haven't misunderstood you.

Are you suggesting that it is possible that seeing the Holocaust as God's judgement on the Jews may be Biblically correct? ("...those other Christians could be right.")

If I've interpreted you correctly, you're effectively saying that the Holocaust may be justified - you're just not sure. By implication this is a tacit acceptance of anti-semitism (i.e. the Jews deserved what they got).

Please tell me I've misunderstood you.

OB
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Your answer left me somewhat shocked so I'd like to confirm that I haven't misunderstood you.
I think you're misunderstanding me.

Are you suggesting that it is possible that seeing the Holocaust as God's judgement on the Jews may be Biblically correct? ("...those other Christians could be right.")
It's possible.

If I've interpreted you correctly, you're effectively saying that the Holocaust may be justified - you're just not sure. By implication this is a tacit acceptance of anti-semitism (i.e. the Jews deserved what they got).
And are you a Semitic scholar now, one who gets to pontificate upon historical social definitions? Because, if you're not, do realize that the equivocal inference you're attempting to falsely apply to me will tip-toe you ever so boldly into regions of thought that will require your further study and education.

And I'll be more than happy to oblige anyone who thinks they're going to take me to task and imply with sophistry that I'm anti-semitic (which in my case would be a contradiction of terms if we both vet out the historical etymology of the meaning of the word, 'Semite.' According to your too loose definition of anti-semitism, Paul the Apostle would be anti-semitic! Even Jesus would be! ....... and I dare say, even the Lord Himself as portrayed in the Old Testament. Of course, that would be preposterous to say these last three things, don't you think?)

Do you want to go there? If you're going to land a punch into that tar-baby, then you better be ready to take what you give. I'd suggest you take two steps back and logically and wisely reconsider.

Please tell me I've misunderstood you.
Well, I can do better than to allay your fear of having misunderstood me. I can simply invite you to look at all I've read on the subject and then compare that to all I've said about it.
 
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Occams Barber

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Well, I can do better than that. I can simply invite you to look at all I've read on the subject and then compare that to all I've said about it.
[/QUOTE]

Not necessary Phil. Just tell me I've misunderstood you and I'll accept it.

OB
 
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Moral Orel

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?

I'm guessing this is the same fella that said you needed to defend the idea that the Holocaust was wrong. He's trying to play the angle that morality is subjective without God, but in this instance, the word "fair" isn't entirely subjective. We can at least roughly compare the actions of a person against the actions of another person. Did the Jews who were persecuted in the Holocaust ever commit genocide? No? Then it wasn't an equitable response to whatever perceived harms the Nazis viewed the Jews as being responsible for.

Now here's the kicker. If your theist buddy is of the sort of Christian that believes all humans deserve to be eternally tormented in Hell, then he's the sort of Christian that believes the Jews who were persecuted in the Holocaust deserved it and actually more. He won't like admitting it, so he probably won't, but that's a sad fact. As bad as the Holocaust was, Hell is supposedly worse, and all humans deserve it for whatever sins they committed in their short little lives according to these types.

However, he may be an Annihilationist that believes sinners get destroyed instead of tormented, then he gets a pass on this. Universalists would get a pass too, but I'm sure he ain't one of those based on the arguments he's been making. I'd bet he's a wailing and gnashing of teeth type.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In another thread another person challenged my assertion that the Nazis were unfair to the Jews. I thought everybody here would surely agree with me that the Holocaust was unfair. But this person challenged my assertion, and demanded that I prove that the Holocaust was unfair. Is he alone in this challenge, or does everybody here agree that the Holocaust was unfair?

Christianity starts you off with Ray Comfort-isms such as, "Have you ever lied? Then you're a liar" and so on. And "you know these things are wrong because the creator of the universe has written the law on your heart."

And then more "sophisticated" apologists seem to forget the obvious, and want to convince us that we can't know what morality is without examining the scriptures. There's some kind of "objective morality" out there, independent of our own subjective understanding of right and wrong.

So basically, we are supposed to be drawn to Christianity because of our innate sense of right and wrong, even though our innate sense of right and wrong is utterly irrelevant.
 
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