Was Gettysburg Really a Major Defeat for the South?

JacobKStarkey

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We tried once in our War of Independence and four times in the War of 1812.

Canadians just could not see a good thing when it was right in front of their noses.

So we took more than half of Mexico more than thirty years later, which was a great deal for the US, not so much for Mexico.
 
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grasping the after wind

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grasping the after wind

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We tried once in our War of Independence and four times in the War of 1812.

Canadians just could not see a good thing when it was right in front of their noses.

So we took more than half of Mexico more than thirty years later, which was a great deal for the US, not so much for Mexico.

Since I feel so guilty about that I suggest we give California back.
 
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usexpat97

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No thanks. Give up sunshine and moonshine for frozen tundra and Tim bits? No thanks.

If you want to take over Canada, start with Timbits. They're not Timbits! They're donut holes. And stop allowing people to pour gravy on their french fries--that's just sick.
 
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grasping the after wind

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If you want to take over Canada, start with Timbits. They're not Timbits! They're donut holes. And stop allowing people to pour gravy on their french fries--that's just sick.


I don't want to take over Canada. Gravy on French Fries is a wonderful thing and not a Canadian invention. The problem with poutine is that it doesn't stop with the gravy. As for Timbits, they are useful for chucking at caribou but not much else.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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The South did not come close to winning in 1864.

It was holding on by the skin of its teeth after being booted out of .Chattanooga. Then a brief, very brief lieu occurred after Chickamauga, then the grinder of the Union armies rolled down the track to Atlanta.

Almost 25% of the CSA armies deserted by Christmas and 50% by the following March.

The CSA was an already dead corpse trembling with the final bursts of its disrupted nervous system.


Indeed they did by election. Mac was almost elected. Even given the Atlanta capture and valley/mobile success, 20,000 votes the other way and mac wins.

It was in fact a major offensive with reinforcements from Virginia.


Yes after election. Defeat was certain.

Agreed.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Well, since I don't drink alcohol that suggestion would be a little hard for me. :wave:


so..."Yeah, this thread is about just how badly the south lost at Gettysburg."? I'm pretty sure all the battles the south lost were major defeats for them simply because they were never going to be able to match the troops and supplies the north could throw at them. :wave:
tulc(in the end it was simply a matter of arithmetic)


you could always start lol. Jesus i think liked wine how about that? some red?
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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JacobKStarkey

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The high tide of the CSA was ended on 3 and 4 July 1863,

Thomas and his generals decisively defeated Hood at Franklin and Nashville, but did not destroy the foe's army, which managed to retreat to Tupelo.

Grant routed Pendleton's army in MS then forced it into capitulation at Vicksburg.

Grant forced Lee's army at Petersburg to flee, chased it down and trapped it at Appomatox, where Lee surrendered.
 
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Silverback

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I was listening to a Gary Gallagher lecture series [and a recent book I read supports him] and he said that in 1863 the south did not view Gettysburg as a defeat, but as a draw on the battlefield and many considered the campaign a success even thoe it fell short of its major goal to win a major victory over the army of the Potomac and earn peace. He mentioned how the south was not driven from the field they simply failed to remove the federals from the field and since they were not driven from it, it was viewed by most at the time as a draw. Some southern soldiers [and populous, newspapers etc] viewed it as a victory since they won day 1 and drove the federals back and than maintained position day 2 and 3.

There was no spirit of defeat in the army this morning [4th] men waited hopefully for federal attack on their hill.”
-Burke Davis Jeb Stuart the Last Cavalier


Gallagher said how day 1 was one of the great attacking victories of the war pushing back and inflicting heavy damage on 2 union corps. After the vicious day 2 fighting general Meade was ready to retreat and made plans but was talked out of it by his subordinates. Lee declared day 2 a victory.

When the second days battle was over General Lee declared it a success.”
-James Longstreet quoted in Ken Burns PBS the civil war documentary


The federals suffered such large causalities [the largest of any battle of the war ] they did not mount a major offensive in Virginia for 10 months.

"Gen Lee maneuvering the Yankees out of Virginia is the grandest piece of strategy ever herd of.”
-Jeb Stuart letter to his wife July 13th


The campaign removed the federal army from Virginia to the north giving Virginia farmland much needed rest. Stuart and the army had great success on their secondary goal, capturing much needed food and fodder for the army while living off northern farmland.

I think many see Gettysburg as a major defeat because Lee never invaded the north again. Yet this had more to do with accumulative loss of manpower to all southern armies and drop in morale coupled with larger more aggressive northern armies. At the time nobody new lee would not invade again and some thought he would.

We return without defeat to recuperate and reinforce when no dout the role will be reenacted...."
-Jeb Stuart letter to his wife July 13th


Further Early did invade in 64 and Lee sent Longstreet and 2 divisions to Tennessee. Not something a defeated army would likely do. But a confident army would and Lee showed they had plenty of fight left in 64.

Others say the south lost the war at Gettysburg, I dont see how this is so. Gettysburg combined with Vicksburg was a big blow for sure. But Lincoln was not likely to be reelected [ peace democrats would have been ] until Sherman captured Atlanta and Early was defeated in the valley along with the capture of Mobile. Those events secured Lincolns reelection and won the war for the north, not Gettysburg. The high causalities of 64 and battles like Gettysburg [union losses 23,000] almost cost the republicans the war I think Ken Burns Documentary shows this very well.

Well, I would say it was a defeat, thousands dead, thousands more wounded, captured, and missing.

The South left the field, never to see the Northern States again.

The killing went on for two more years, and with the Southern Defeat at Vicksburg, MS, the backdoor to the South was opened, and it's days were numbered.

Almost all the Southern victories were as bitter as defeat, even if the Northern Army was driven from the field, the South was unable to replenish it's losses which were close to those of the Union.

Once Grant took over, his strategy did not depend on victories per se, simply engaging Less forces, pulling back, replenishing his numbers (and more) then extending his line thus forcing lee to do the same until Lee's forces were to thin to hold the line around Petersburg.

It's hard to say where the South lost the war, certainly losing control of the Mississippi River hurt the Southern cause, but, I think the double blow of Vicksburg/Gettysburg was the beginning of the end of the Southern cause.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I support all kinds of secession. I happened to like the declaration and the idea of the consent of the governed.

Me too.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

As I see it the division which is tearing apart the United States is one that mainly stems from opposing views on basic belief about the role of government. When such opposing beliefs on such a seminal issue are so emotionally held by each side, continued association within one system is unworkable. The result will be that one side or the other will, by force, compel the other side to comply with their vision of governance against their will. Is it not preferable to dissolve the bonds between the two and allow them each to go their separate ways governing themselves as they each see fit? Of course the impediment to that solution is that people tend to wish to control the actions of others and in many cases feel emotionally insecure about their own ideas if someone else is able to be happy by following a path that converges from them.
 
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Silverback

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You are correct, the United States is tearing itself apart, and it's getting worse.

However, I don't see serious civil unrest, the vast majority of the nation has food, clothing, and shelter.

As long as that's the case, most people will carry on.

People don't value much anymore, having freely given the role of improving there lives to the Government.

Most people today no longer see that success means very hard work, and sacrifice for many years. Add to that the necessity of making good decisions, and it's to much for them, so I'll just let the Government take care of me.

With that attitude, no one will rise up, until they get hungary enough.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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The high tide of the CSA was ended on 3 and 4 July 1863,

Thomas and his generals decisively defeated Hood at Franklin and Nashville, but did not destroy the foe's army, which managed to retreat to Tupelo.

Grant routed Pendleton's army in MS then forced it into capitulation at Vicksburg.

Grant forced Lee's army at Petersburg to flee, chased it down and trapped it at Appomatox, where Lee surrendered.


I would say the high tide was Chancellorsville before Jackson died or mid 64 with the north turning against the war. Or maybe even after bull run.



Thanks for the trivia.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Well, I would say it was a defeat, thousands dead, thousands more wounded, captured, and missing.

The South left the field, never to see the Northern States again.

Tell me a southern victory that did not leave thousands dead?.

Not so in fact they came closest to D.C in 64 and invaded Pennsylvania. But this had little to do with Gettysburg. Many factors played into this.



The killing went on for two more years, and with the Southern Defeat at Vicksburg, MS, the backdoor to the South was opened, and it's days were numbered.

But how does this make Gettysburg a major defeat?


Almost all the Southern victories were as bitter as defeat, even if the Northern Army was driven from the field, the South was unable to replenish it's losses which were close to those of the Union.

Agreed. But than northern losses turned opinions against the war in 64.


Once Grant took over, his strategy did not depend on victories per se, simply engaging Less forces, pulling back, replenishing his numbers (and more) then extending his line thus forcing lee to do the same until Lee's forces were to thin to hold the line around Petersburg.


and it almost cost the federals the war.


It's hard to say where the South lost the war, certainly losing control of the Mississippi River hurt the Southern cause, but, I think the double blow of Vicksburg/Gettysburg was the beginning of the end of the Southern cause.

fair enough.
 
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