Was Christ's nature "added to" or "changed"?

[Bulldog]

Has Christ always been human, or was His nature "added on to" at the incarnation? Is He still human? What do you believe and why?

 

[HypnoToad]

There's nothing in Scripture suggesting that Christ's physical humanity always existed. As a matter of fact, it says He "became" like us and "took on" our likeness. By definition, He couldn't do those things if He ALREADY WAS like us and already had our likeness. His physical body was created at His conception in Mary.

As for now, I suppose it's debatable, but I don't think Scripture suggests that Christ lost His physical body after He resurrected or ascended. So, I would think He still has it now.

 

[Bulldog]

There's nothing in Scripture suggesting that Christ's physical humanity always existed. As a matter of fact, it says He "became" like us and "took on" our likeness. By definition, He couldn't do those things if He ALREADY WAS like us and already had our likeness. His physical body was created at His conception in Mary.

As for now, I suppose it's debatable, but I don't think Scripture suggests that Christ lost His physical body after He resurrected or ascended. So, I would think He still has it now.

Okay, but did flesh define Christ's human nature? I know that He did not always have a fleshly body, but does that necessarily mean that He did not have a human nature?

 

[Simonline]

Has Christ always been human, or was his nature "added on to" at the incarnation? Is he still human? What do you believe and why?

Which one...he has two?


The Bible teaches that the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) who, being God shares exactly the same Eternal and Immutable Nature as the first and third Persons of the Trinity (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit) incarnated to become the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth.

The Messiah's Divine Nature is both Eternal (absolutely incapable of and utterly impervious to existence within time) and Immutable (absolutely incapable of and utterly impervious to change) but his human nature is both temporal (absolutely incapable of existence outside of time) and mutable (absolutely incapable of Immutable existence). This means that only a part of his Being is Eternal Creator whilst the rest of it is temporal creature. The Messiah is a unique hybrid of both Creator and creature. Since the Incarnation the Messiah will continue forever as the unique hybrid (although now in his resurrection body). The Messiah did not 'separate' his human nature (as an astronaut takes off his space suit after returning to Earth, carefully putting it away until his next space mission) after the ascension and 'revert' back to being pre-incarnate pure Divine Nature, he will now remain the Creator/creature hybrid forever. He has not stopped being human just because he has ascended back into heaven (his resurrection body enables him to remain human even whilst in heaven).

Thus whilst the Messiah's Divine Nature has neither begining nor end (Rev.1:8,11; 21:6; 22:13), his human nature has a definite point of historical origin (the Incarnation) but will have no end.

Simonline.

 

[Bulldog]

Which one...he has two?

You're right, the question probably wasn't worded correctly.

Thus whilst the Messiah's Divine Nature has neither begining nor end (Rev.1:8,11; 21:6; 22:13), his human nature has a definite point of historical origin (the Incarnation) but will have no end.

Thank you.

I suppose another question that flows from this is: Does flesh define humanity? When we die, and lose our physical bodies, do we lose our humanity?

 

[Simonline]

Okay, but did flesh define Christ's human nature? I know that He did not always have a fleshly body, but does that necessarily mean that He did not have a human nature?

There is no evidence anywhere (in spite of what the Mormons would have us believe about God telling Jeremiah 'before you were born I knew you') to suggest that finite human creatures have non-corporeal existence prior to incarnation (though there is evidence to support the belief that humans exist non-corporeally (without a physical body) in between the first death and the resurrection) therefore the idea that the human Messiah existed prior to the Incarnation cannot be substantiated [N.B. Only the two natures together are the Messiah. Prior to the Incarnation the eternally begotten Son/Word of God (the second Person of the Trinity) existed but not as the Incarnated Messiah.] Furthermore, for the Messiah's human nature to exist pre-Incarnation would mean that his human nature would be existing according to the rules which govern Divinity (Eternal, non-temporal existence) which would mean that his 'human' nature would not actually be 'human' but Divine?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

You're right, the question probably wasn't worded correctly.



Thank you.

I suppose another question that flows from this is: Does flesh define humanity? When we die, and lose our physical bodies, do we lose our humanity?

Are animals and plants human...they have 'flesh'? Do we stop being human when we die?

Human nature is defined by possession of the image of God alone (The Divine Nature, by definition, cannot possess it's own image (copy/type/cameo etc.) since it is the original).

Simonline.

 

[Knowledge3]

Has Christ always been human, or was His nature "added on to" at the incarnation? Is He still human? What do you believe and why?

I believe that Jesus was a natural man with divine attributes. If Jesus felt pain and suffering, then those would be human qualities. Jesus is the model for human redemption and is the source of salvation.

 

[CaDan]

Hard core Christology!

*head explodes*

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Okay, but did flesh define Christ's human nature? I know that He did not always have a fleshly body, but does that necessarily mean that He did not have a human nature?

Yes, it does mean that Christ did not have a human nature prior to the Incarnation.

You have to remember that Christ has two natures, Divine which is eternal, and a human nature taken on in the Incarnation, and is now and forevermore both Divine and Human.

 

[HypnoToad]

Okay, but did flesh define Christ's human nature? I know that He did not always have a fleshly body, but does that necessarily mean that He did not have a human nature?

There are MANY parts of "human nature". Some of those are SHARED by the divine nature. For example, humans have emotions - so does God.

Christ, therefore, had some qualities that humans also have even before His conception in Mary. However, to be FULLY human, or TRUE man - includes having a physical body. So, Jesus was not fully human, not true man, until He had a physical body.

 

[Simonline]

Yes, it does mean that Christ did not have a human nature prior to the Incarnation.

You have to remember that Christ has two natures, Divine which is eternal, and a human nature taken on in the Incarnation, and is now and forevermore both Divine and Human.

Here's one for you to think about....

If we worship the Messiah are we guilty of idolatry for worshiping a creature? [Although the Scriptures record that people worshipped the Messiah and that the Messiah did not rebuke them for doing so (since, being Divine, he was fully entitled to it) the Scriptures never teach that the Messiah ever taught people to worship or pray to anyone other than the exclusively Divine Creator God in heaven]?

Simonline.

 

[HypnoToad]

Here's one for you to think about....

If we worship the Messiah are we guilty of idolatry for worshiping a creature? [Although the Scriptures record that people worshipped the Messiah and that the Messiah did not rebuke them for doing so (since, being Divine, he was fully entitled to it) the Scriptures never teach that the Messiah ever taught people to worship or pray to anyone other than God in heaven]?

Simonline.

No, it's not idolatry because only the physical body was created - we don't worship Christ's physical body - we worship the entirety of Christ.

 

[Iollain]

I would say that Christ didn't lose His physical body, He was changed, corruptible became incorruptible.

I think we were made in the physical image of God, though He is Spirit, he still had a human form, as in what Moses saw:

Exd 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.


Exd 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.


Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.


Exd 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


Exd 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:


Exd 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:


Exd 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.



I think that when the Word took on flesh He found out was it was like to be human as we are, as the Bible says.




Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.


Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.


Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Simonline]

There are MANY parts of "human nature". Some of those are SHARED by the divine nature. For example, humans have emotions - so does God.

Christ, therefore, had some qualities that humans also have even before His conception in Mary. However, to be FULLY human, or TRUE man - includes having a physical body. So, Jesus was not fully human, not true man, until He had a physical body.

No. You've got it the wrong way around. Start at the begining and work forwards. Don't start in the middle and work backwards. Humans are made in the image of God. God is not made in anyone's image. Personality is fundamental to the Divine Nature but is only derived from God in human nature.

The Divine Nature has personality incorporated within it (three to be precise). We only have personality because we are made in God's image. The definition of what it means to be human is not to possess corporeality (a physical body) since humans are not the only beings that possess corporeality but rather to possess the image of God. The second Person of the Trinity (like the other two) possessed Personality prior to the Incarnation but did not possess the (derived) image of God (which is what it means to be human).

The Messiah came into existence (became human) only at the Incarnation.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

No, it's not idolatry because only the physical body was created - we don't worship Christ's physical body - we worship the entirety of Christ.

Isn't that a contradiction? How does one worship the Messiah in entirety without worshipping his created human nature (including his body)? To argue that we worship only the Divine Nature is to deny the hypo-static union and the unity of Person that is the Messiah? To believe that the Messiah (Christ) is purely Divine is heresy.

Simonline.

p.s. there's more to being human than just a physical body (unless you believe that animals fish and plants (not to mention the rest of the physical Creation) are also human?

 

[CaDan]

Simonline, you're just messin' with folks!

(Off to study up on Ephesus and Chalcedon).

 

[Melethiel]

Hard core Christology!

*head explodes*

Lol. Yeah. *starts picking up portions of asploded brain*

 

[Jesus Is Real]

You're right, the question probably wasn't worded correctly.



Thank you.

I suppose another question that flows from this is: Does flesh define humanity? When we die, and lose our physical bodies, do we lose our humanity?

Bulldog,

As anyone died in our family lately?

 

[Bulldog]

Bulldog,

As anyone died in our family lately?

No.