Was 'Christ died for our sins' preached to the unsaved?

[Hammster]

I believe that Paul's wording remains a problem for your theology. If your view is correct, that Paul passed on 'in the foremost for believers', then what he passed on to then as unbelievers was different and not exactly what he received.

Just like your belief in Arminianism, your belief that this remains a problem is incorrect. We know what Paul passed to unbelievers. Is all over Acts.

 

[Hammster]

I also think you have a problem with the fact that what was passed includes statements that could be spoken to unbelievers, which means Paul groups that which you say is only to be spoken to believers with them.

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Your circular reasoning is showing again.

 

[janxharris]

Just like your belief in Arminianism, your belief that this remains a problem is incorrect. We know what Paul passed to unbelievers. Is all over Acts.

That does not deal with what I actually wrote.

 

[janxharris]

Your circular reasoning is showing again.

Paul does not distinguish between a gospel for believers and a gospel for unbelievers.

 

[janxharris]

.

 

[janxharris]

We know what Paul passed to unbelievers. Is all over Acts.

Correct - he preached the gospel. 1 Cor. 15:3-8 is the gospel.

Paul receives A and preaches A.
Your view is that Paul receives A but preaches it to converts whilst preaching something a little different (B) to the unsaved.

 

[janxharris]

1 Cor. 2:1-2
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Why would Paul tell the non-elect about a Christ crucified for those other than themselves?

Paul says, 'When I came to you'. Paul does not say he waited to say it after conversion.

 

[Hammster]

Correct - he preached the gospel. 1 Cor. 15:3-8 is the gospel.

Paul receives A and preaches A.
Your view is that Paul receives A but preaches it to converts whilst preaching something a little different (B) to the unsaved.

And yet, you can't find those words which you say are most important for unbelievers anywhere in Acts.

 

[Hammster]

1 Cor. 2:1-2
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Why would Paul tell the non-elect about a Christ crucified for those other than themselves?

Paul says, 'When I came to you'. Paul does not say he waited to say it after conversion.

Where do you see Paul saying "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified for everyone"?

 

[rick357]

There is a differance between evangelism and teaching.....Paul is several times recorded as going to synagogue in a city and recieving a mixed responce to his message....also at Mars hill....yet the epistles are teaching directed to believers.
The message of who Jesus is and what he has done is to all men...the message of how to walk in what he has done is for believers

 

[A New Dawn]

If you are referring to 1 Cor 2:6ff., then that is to mature believers.

v.14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

This is talking about such a message of wisdom for mature believers that unbelievers cannot accept. Look, however, at vv. 1-5:

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Paul preached 'Christ crucified'. You can't do so to whomever if Christ did not die for all. It's implicit in Paul's words.

Actually, I was referring to

1 Corinthians 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

and

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

But as for your verses, it has nothing to do with being "mature", it has to do with being saved. People who are not saved (and, hence, don't have the Spirit residing in them) consider preaching to be foolishness. Those who are elect and unsaved do also, but for the elect, when they hear the gospel, their hearts are turned and it no longer is foolishness. But to the non-elect, it will always be foolishness. And they don't care. It doesn't faze them one iota. Or can you show me an instance where someone who wasn't elect was preached to and they cared. That is about the only thing that can help your case. (And your mother who was coached doesn't count.)

 

[janxharris]

And yet, you can't find those words which you say are most important for unbelievers anywhere in Acts.

I've already given you some verses from acts where Paul and the apostles preach the gospel.

Again, you did not deal with what I actually wrote.

 

[janxharris]

Where do you see Paul saying "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified for everyone"?

It is obvious Paul does not need to clarify; that he preached 'Christ crucified' to whomever is sufficient and proves that Christ died for all. You can't preach 'Christ crucified' to all if Christ was only crucified for some and expect your integrity to remain intact.

1 Cor 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

1 Cor 2:1-2
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Cor 15 expounds on these verses. Your problem remains that vv.3-8 are the gospel and Paul preached it to whomever.

 

[janxharris]

There is a differance between evangelism and teaching.....Paul is several times recorded as going to synagogue in a city and recieving a mixed responce to his message....also at Mars hill....yet the epistles are teaching directed to believers.
The message of who Jesus is and what he has done is to all men...the message of how to walk in what he has done is for believers

You are quite wrong:

Romans 15:20
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

1 Cor 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Acts 5:42
Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

ibid. 8:4-5, 12, 25, 35, 40
Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.

Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

 

[nobdysfool]

What are unbelievers to make of the fact that Hammster denies that 'Christ died for our sins' was proclaimed to whomever, but A New Dawn does not?

If you keep poking a stick into a hornet's nest, you're gonna get stung...

It's clear here that the agenda is to divide the Calvinists, by means of phony "inconsistencies", and to try to play both sides off against each other.

It won't work. It has not worked. It will never work.

 

[janxharris]

If you keep poking a stick into a hornet's nest, you're gonna get stung...

It's clear here that the agenda is to divide the Calvinists, by means of phony "inconsistencies", and to try to play both sides off against each other.

It won't work. It has not worked. It will never work.

I doubt you'd find Arminians disagreeing over whether 1 Cor 15:3 was preached to unbelievers. That Calvinists do is telling.

You have been asked to actually respond to the OP.

 

[janxharris]

Actually, I was referring to

1 Corinthians 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

and

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

But as for your verses, it has nothing to do with being "mature", it has to do with being saved. People who are not saved (and, hence, don't have the Spirit residing in them) consider preaching to be foolishness. Those who are elect and unsaved do also, but for the elect, when they hear the gospel, their hearts are turned and it no longer is foolishness. But to the non-elect, it will always be foolishness. And they don't care. It doesn't faze them one iota. Or can you show me an instance where someone who wasn't elect was preached to and they cared. That is about the only thing that can help your case. (And your mother who was coached doesn't count.)

In context, 1 Cor 1:15 is with regard to those who rely on the wisdom of the world. Romans 3:10ff. is a reference to the inability of men to fulfill the law. See the verses that follow Paul's citation of Psalms 14 and 53.

You are quite wrong regarding 1 Cor 2:14 - Paul explicitly states that he is talking about a message for the mature. Further, you are making an argument for those God chooses to be without access to salvation.

You are still not addressing the implications of your admission (that is not shared by all Calvinists) - if Paul and the apostles preached 1 Cor 15:3 to the unsaved then Christ did in fact die for them, and by extension, all. Anyone can understand such a simple sentence. They might not agree or care or appreciate what is being said, but they can understand the concept being presented.

 

[janxharris]

It's clear here that the agenda is to divide the Calvinists, by means of phony "inconsistencies", and to try to play both sides off against each other.

I did not make anyone adopt a position contrary to their fellow Calvinist did I? I'm merely asking a question which you appear unable to answer.

Did Paul preach 1 Cor 15:3 to unbelievers or not?

 

[rick357]

You are quite wrong:

Romans 15:20
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

1 Cor 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Acts 5:42
Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

ibid. 8:4-5, 12, 25, 35, 40
Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.

Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

How do these verses in any way contradict what I've said?....what did I miss

 

[janxharris]

How do these verses in any way contradict what I've said?....what did I miss

Upon re-reading what you wrote, I'm not sure that what I thought you were saying is actually what you were saying. Apologies.

Could you clarify please?