Was 'Christ died for our sins' preached to the unsaved?

[janxharris]

It's expressed in different ways depending on the audience. It's expressed to believers by assuring them that Christ died for their sins. That's what Paul does in 1 Corinthians.

That is an assertion without argument whilst the OP makes a clear case as to why you are wrong. You have not dealt with the specifics of it.

 

[Hammster]

That is an assertion without argument whilst the OP makes a clear case as to why you are wrong. You have not dealt with the specifics of it.

Sure. You just are ignoring.

Who was Paul writing to? The church. They were believers. He's reiterating what he preached to them. He doesn't say that Christ died for everyone's sins. He says "our". There's no record of him saying that in any evangelical account. And if it's of first importance, as you've stressed, it should be all over those messages.

So why don't you think it is?

 

[janxharris]

Sure. You just are ignoring.

Who was Paul writing to? The church. They were believers. He's reiterating what he preached to them. He doesn't say that Christ died for everyone's sins. He says "our". There's no record of him saying that in any evangelical account. And if it's of first importance, as you've stressed, it should be all over those messages.

So why don't you think it is?

Did Paul deliver what he received 'in the foremost' or not? If vv.3-8 constitutes the gospel which was only to be preached after conversion then its not what he delivered 'in the foremost' is it?

Yes, Paul was writting to the believing church, but he allows for the fact that there may be those who are not firm in their belief:

v.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Yes, he is reiterating what he preached to them 'in the foremost'. Paul did not have to say 'everyone'; 'our' suffices. I have given you plenty of verses from Acts where the Gospel was preached. The reason that it's not all over Acts (as exactly as you are demanding) is because it was so firmly established that detail was not necessary. 1 Cor. 15:3 remains tenable proof that Christ died for all. You appear unable to refute the specific argument made in the op. Please would you do so.

 

[janxharris]

Evidence that 'Christ died for our sins' was preached to unbelievers:

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Number of scriptures that state the converse = ZERO.

 

[Hammster]

Did Paul deliver what he received 'in the foremost' or not? If vv.3-8 constitutes the gospel which was only to be preached after conversion then its not what he delivered 'in the foremost' is it?

Yes, Paul was writting to the believing church, but he allows for the fact that there may be those who are not firm in their belief:

v.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Yes, he is reiterating what he preached to them 'in the foremost'. Paul did not have to say 'everyone'; 'our' suffices. I have given you plenty of verses from Acts where the Gospel was preached. The reason that it's not all over Acts (as exactly as you are demanding) is because it was so firmly established that detail was not necessary. 1 Cor. 15:3 remains tenable proof that Christ died for all. You appear unable to refute the specific argument made in the op. Please would you do so.

Firmly established? Are you even remotely aware of church history? Was the church firmly established at Pentecost? When Paul was on Mars Hill proclaiming Christ to those who has never heard, was the alleged idea the Christ died for everyone firmly established to his hearers?

I'd like to hear an answer to this one.

 

[Hammster]

Evidence that 'Christ died for our sins' was preached to unbelievers:

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Number of scriptures that state the converse = ZERO.

I don't suppose we can get any of these in context, can we. That would just not do.

 

[janxharris]

Firmly established? Are you even remotely aware of church history? Was the church firmly established at Pentecost? When Paul was on Mars Hill proclaiming Christ to those who has never heard, was the alleged idea the Christ died for everyone firmly established to his hearers?

I'd like to hear an answer to this one.

Are you going to respond to the op directly or not?

The idea that Christ died for all was firmly established - the scriptures I gave you are very clear.

Without atonement provision the gospel is practically impossible to deliver as good news. And we have seen this - how Calvinists struggle to deliver it without misleading their audience.

 

[Hammster]

Are you going to respond to the op directly or not?

The idea that Christ died for all was firmly established - the scriptures I gave you are very clear.

Without atonement provision the gospel is practically impossible to deliver as good news. And we have seen this - how Calvinists struggle to deliver it without misleading their audience.

You keep asking if I'll respond. I have. It's a tad disingenuous to say that I haven't.

And according to your theology, it looks like the gospel was never proclaimed in Acts.

 

[Hammster]

I know I'll regret doing this for the simple fact that there won't really be a discussion, but only assertions. But here we go.

Evidence that 'Christ died for our sins' was preached to unbelievers:

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The word is actually the word translated as "all". And the writer goes on to describe who he has in mind in the following verses. Context.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

If Christ too away the sins of everyone, then any who are in hell are there unjustly. This is an argument that Arminians always run away from. They think quoting this verse solves everything.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Arminians don't really believe this. They think He only came to try to save sinners. His success is fully dependent upon man's willingness.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

It's clear from the context (notice how the Arminian excluded the previous verses) that Paul has in mind all types of men. Either that, or we must believe that Christ is mediating between God and those who will never believe.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe.

This will take more space than I want to dedicate. But if christ is the savior of all people, that is universalism.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If all sins are atoned for, then those in hell are there unjustly.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

This is my favorite. I don't know what version this is from, but it's probably the only one that uses the word "offer". Plus, singling it out totally rips it out of context. But at this point, is anyone surprised?

Number of scriptures that state the converse = ZERO.

Number of verses that when taken in context support your view? Zero.

 

[A New Dawn]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7840224-18/#post66344115 :

Paul is talking to believers and those who will become believers. That is his target audience. It doesn't matter that some who weren't, and never would be, believers were there to hear it. The offer was made to all (if that is what you insist) so that the elect would hear and respond. IT. JUST. DOESN'T. MATTER.

Why are you quoting my post back to me? I admit that there are non-elect non-believers out there hearing the gospel. That does not mean it was preached to them. All it means that they were there when it was preached to the (as of yet) unbelieving elect. You have only shown scripture where Paul says he preached to those who came to believe. You haven't shown that he said he preached to those who would not come to believe, specifically.

 

[EmSw]

Why are you quoting my post back to me? I admit that there are non-elect non-believers out there hearing the gospel. That does not mean it was preached to them. All it means that they were there when it was preached to the (as of yet) unbelieving elect. You have only shown scripture where Paul says he preached to those who came to believe. You haven't shown that he said he preached to those who would not come to believe, specifically.

What an amazing statement.

Acts 26 -
19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
21 For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.
22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place;
23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
24 While Paul was saying this in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind! Your great learning is driving you mad.”
25 But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth.
26 For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do.”
28 Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.”

 

[A New Dawn]

What an amazing statement.

Acts 26 -
19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
21 For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.
22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place;
23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
24 While Paul was saying this in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind! Your great learning is driving you mad.”
25 But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth.
26 For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do.”
28 Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.”

You are assuming, I guess, that Paul knows who is elect and who isn't, or you wouldn't be quoting this verse. The gospel is preached so that those who are elect will hear and respond. God says his word will not return void. That means that there will be believers who hear it preached, even if Paul has no idea who that might be.

 

[janxharris]

You keep asking if I'll respond. I have. It's a tad disingenuous to say that I haven't.

And according to your theology, it looks like the gospel was never proclaimed in Acts.

You have not dealt with the OP at all - all you have done is to state that there is no example of such preaching.

 

[janxharris]

Why are you quoting my post back to me? I admit that there are non-elect non-believers out there hearing the gospel. That does not mean it was preached to them. All it means that they were there when it was preached to the (as of yet) unbelieving elect. You have only shown scripture where Paul says he preached to those who came to believe. You haven't shown that he said he preached to those who would not come to believe, specifically.

Paul tells unbelievers that 'Christ died for our sins' and yet you still maintain that they were not being preached to?

 

[Hammster]

You have not dealt with the OP at all - all you have done is to state that there is no example of such preaching.

I got ya. You just want to ignore the rest of scripture. Well, I guess you win this one.

 

[EmSw]

You are assuming, I guess, that Paul knows who is elect and who isn't, or you wouldn't be quoting this verse. The gospel is preached so that those who are elect will hear and respond. God says his word will not return void. That means that there will be believers who hear it preached, even if Paul has no idea who that might be.

Let's stick with your statement - 'You haven't shown that he said he preached to those who would not come to believe, specifically.'

Paul preached to all who heard him. He preached to many who would not come to believe.

 

[A New Dawn]

Let's stick with your statement - 'You haven't shown that he said he preached to those who would not come to believe, specifically.'

Paul preached to all who heard him. He preached to many who would not come to believe.

............. because he knew that there would be believers who'd respond. The elect. The rest were there coincidentally.

 

[A New Dawn]

Paul tells unbelievers that 'Christ died for our sins' and yet you still maintain that they were not being preached to?

Paul tell the unbelieving elect that Christ died for their sins. The rest didn't hear, they didn't believe and they didn't care. The only ones who cared were the ones who responded. THEY were the ones being preached to because Christ only came to save those whom the Father had given him.

 

[janxharris]

I got ya. You just want to ignore the rest of scripture. Well, I guess you win this one.

So you are not going to deal with v.3a then? It is as though your admitting it seems to say what I have suggested in the OP, but because there's no example in Acts, it can't be.

As I have said before, if it says what I suggest then 1 Cor 15 is an example of what you are requesting.

 

[janxharris]

Paul tell the unbelieving elect that Christ died for their sins. The rest didn't hear, they didn't believe and they didn't care. The only ones who cared were the ones who responded. THEY were the ones being preached to because Christ only came to save those whom the Father had given him.

It is a fact that the unbelieving unelect (your definition) are being preached to if Paul and co. told them v.3. Yes, they reject it, but they are still cognizant of the fact of what they were told.

I don't understand how you think TUIP survives the loss of L.