Was Augustine the one who created "Calvinism", and why?

Dr. Jack

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Radagast

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Dr. Jack

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There is no problem.

Compatibilist free will, which you don't seem to understand, is compatible with determinism. That's why it's called "compatibilist."
No, it isn't. Have you heard of the "Frankfurt Cases"?
 
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Dr. Jack

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Assume what you like, but please be more polite about it.
I wasn't impolite, I was direct. I asked a direct question, which you chose not to answer directly. Hence, you evaded answering the question, by redirecting the focus to me.

The Frankfurt Cases have to do with God controlling the mind of the individual. He gives the example of SECRETLY putting a device in the brain that causes you to think of "B", when you think of doing "A".

So it boils down to God controlling your mind at a subconscious level when you make decisions.

Why would such an argument be presented to explain a Holy God's actions?
 
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Radagast

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The Frankfurt Cases have to do with God controlling the mind of the individual. He gives the example of SECRETLY putting a device in the brain that causes you to think of "B", when you think of doing "A".

So it boils down to God controlling your mind at a subconscious level when you make decisions.

I am fully aware of the Frankfurt cases. As I said, they are a set of arguments in favour of compatibilism.

Your explanation of them is quite wrong. For those following at home, read this.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I am fully aware of the Frankfurt cases. As I said, they are a set of arguments in favour of compatibilism.

Your explanation of them is quite wrong.
Really?

"Frankfurt illustrated this idea with examples. The most famous one involves a nefarious neuroscientist who plays the role of a counterfactual intervener. Here is a version of such a case:
BLACK AND JONES: A neuroscientist, Black, wants Jones to perform a certain action. Black is prepared to go to considerable lengths to get his way, but he prefers to avoid showing his hand unnecessarily. So he waits until Jones is about to make up his mind what to do, and he does nothing unless it is clear to him (Black is an excellent judge of such things) that Jones is going to decide to do something other than what he wants him to do. If it were to become clear that Jones is going to decide to do something else, Black would take effective steps to ensure that Jones decides to do what he wants him to do, by directly manipulating the relevant processes in Jones’s brain. As it turns out, Black never has to show his hand because Jones, for reasons of his own, decides to perform the very action Black wants him to perform."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3OXjTRpdk5_6zujWQTdfG-

Notice the words:
"Black would take effective steps to ensure that Jones decides to do what he wants him to do, by directly manipulating the relevant processes in Jones’s brain."

So how exactly did I get my explanation wrong?

By the way, I like when you tell me I get things wrong. Why?

Because each time you do, I present evidence to show I'm right. The only thing you present are phrases like, 'You're wrong', or 'It irrelevant', with no supporting evidence.

Any readers will see this quickly! Thanks!
 
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Radagast

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So how exactly did I get my explanation wrong?

Every Frankfurt case involves a device that is never used ← this is the important bit

Consequently:
  • the behaviour of the subject is totally determined (because the presence of the device rules out alternative futures)
  • the subject exercises free will (he does exactly what he wants to, without anything interfering with his choice, because the device is never used)
 
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Dr. Jack

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Every Frankfurt case involves a device that is never used ← this is the important bit

Consequently:
  • the behaviour of the subject is totally determined (because the presence of the device rules out alternative futures)
  • the subject exercises free will (he does exactly what he wants to, without anything interfering with his choice, because the device is never used)
The Frankfurt Cases INCLUDE (not involve) a sase where the device is never used. If the device was never needed, there would be no purpose to develop the argument at all.

The point is, that argument is presented BECAUSE Calvinism needs to offer an argument that allows PAP.
 
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Radagast

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The Frankfurt Cases INCLUDE (not involve) a sase where the device is never used. If the device was never needed, there would be no purpose to develop the argument at all.

The point is, that argument is presented BECAUSE Calvinism needs to offer an argument that allows PAP.

In fact, Calvinism denies PAP.

You're obviously not understanding Calvinism either.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I'm glad to hear you say that.

Do you understand
1) The Covenant of Redemption
2) The Covenant of Works
3) The Covenant of Grace?

Let me help you.
The Covenant of Redemption was between The Persons of the Godhead prior to creation

The Covenant of Works was (according to Calvinism) made in the Garden of Eden between God and Adam.

The Covenant of Grace was made post fall, between God and mankind.
 
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Dr. Jack

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In fact, Calvinism denies PAP.

You're obviously not understanding Calvinism either.
Yes, Calvinism is about determinism. God determined every event of all time. This of course denies man's free will. Man cannot be a free agent, if every choice he makes, for every event in life, has been predetermined. Hence the need for the teaching of "compatiblism".

According to Calvinism, there is no PAP, even though Jesus spoke of a counterfactual ...

11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew

1) We know that didn't happen.
2) We also know that Jesus spoke of what WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, under a particular set of circumstances.

This denies the teaching of Calvinism that God can ONLY know true propositions ... things that already have happened, are currently happening, or will happen. Jesus clearly spoke of an event that He had absolute knowledge of, but did not occur.

As you said, Calvinism denies PAP, but Jesus clearly spoke of a PAP. So was Jesus lying, or is Calvinism wrong?
 
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Dr. Jack

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Every Frankfurt case involves a device that is never used ← this is the important bit

Consequently:
  • the behaviour of the subject is totally determined (because the presence of the device rules out alternative futures)
  • the subject exercises free will (he does exactly what he wants to, without anything interfering with his choice, because the device is never used)
"Frankfurt's basic claim is as follows:

"The principle of alternate possibilities is false. A person may well be morally responsible for what he has done even though he could not have done otherwise. The principle's plausibility is an illusion, which can be made to vanish by bringing the relevant moral phenomena into sharper focus."


Frankfurt posits a counterfactual demon who can intervene in an agent's decisions if the agent is about to do something different from what the demon wants the agent to do. Frankfurt's demon will block any alternative possibilities, but leave the agent to "freely choose" to do the one possibility desired by the demon. Frankfurt claims the existence of the hypothetical control mechanisms blocking alternative possibilities are irrelevant to the agent's free choice. This is true when the agent's choice agrees with the demon, but obviously false should the agent disagree. In that case, the demon would have to block the agent's will and the agent would surely notice.



(IRR) There may be circumstances that in no way bring it about that a person performs a certain action; nevertheless, those very circumstances make it impossible for him to avoid performing that action.


Compatibilists have long been bothered by alternative possibilities, apparently needed in order that agents "could do otherwise." They knew that determinism allows only a single future, one actual causal chain of events. They were therefore delighted to get behind Frankfurt's examples as proofs that alternative possibilities, perhaps generated in part by random events, did not exist. Frankfurt argued for moral responsibility without libertarian free will.

Note, however, that Frankfurt assumes that genuine alternative possibilities do exist. If not, there is nothing for his counterfactual intervening demon to block. Furthermore, without alternatives, Frankfurt would have to admit that there is only one "actual sequence" of events leading to one possible future. "Alternative sequences" would be ruled out. Since Frankfurt's demon, much like Laplace's demon, has no way of knowing the actual information about future events - such as agent's decisions - until that information comes into existence, such demons are not possible and Frankfurt-style thought experiments, entertaining as they are, can not establish the compatibilist version of free will."

Calvinism uses the Frankfurt Cases to support "Compatiblism", but Compatiblism is only needed with PAP, and with man having a true "free will".

But, as the article clearly states, "Note, however, that Frankfurt assumes that genuine alternative possibilities do exist. If not, there is nothing for his counterfactual intervening demon to block. Furthermore, without alternatives, Frankfurt would have to admit that there is only one "actual sequence" of events leading to one possible future".
 
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Dr. Jack

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Dr. Ken Wilson's recent book reveals Augustine's view of election.

Augustine had to deny free will in order to justify the baptism of infants, which he claimed were regenerated during water baptism.





.
I have never met a Calvinist that an reconcile the Calvinistic position of the Covenant of Redemption with Adam having a free will prior to the fall.
 
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