Was "Apostolic Succession" even "a thing" in the NT - according to NT writers?

BobRyan

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In Acts 1 we have the apostolic succession for Judas.

But then nothing after that even though the apostle James was killed at the time of Acts 12 long before 70 AD. And yet in the recording of that event - no mention of succession for James in Acts 12.

No mention succession for James when Paul is commissioned in Acts 13,
no mention of it at the Acts 15 council ,
no mention of it in the Acts 21 meeting of the council with Paul about other Christian Jews in Jerusalem.

And John was writing long after that says nothing about it...How odd that he did not consider the "detail" of apostolic succession worth mentioning if indeed it happened.

Apparently then - even If apostolic succession were "a thing" that happened (other than for Judas of course) -- it was apparently "not worth mentioning" by those recording the NT church actions.

And that brings up the question... "how so?"
 

Dave-W

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With Judah (Judas in greek) it was needed as he had thrown his faith and salvation away. Since there were supposed to be 12 thrones in Heaven for the 12 apostles, and he would be elsewhere, a replacement was needed.
 
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FenderTL5

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In Acts 1 we have the apostolic succession for Judas.

But then nothing after that even though the apostle James was killed at the time of Acts 12 long before 70 AD. And yet in the recording of that event - no mention of succession for James in Acts 12.

No mention succession for James when Paul is commissioned in Acts 13,
no mention of it at the Acts 15 council ,
no mention of it in the Acts 21 meeting of the council with Paul about other Christian Jews in Jerusalem.

And John was writing long after that says nothing about it...How odd that he did not consider the "detail" of apostolic succession worth mentioning if indeed it happened.

Apparently then - even If apostolic succession were "a thing" that happened (other than for Judas of course) -- it was apparently "not worth mentioning" by those recording the NT church actions.

And that brings up the question... "how so?"
After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph
^ Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, Book III
 
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Mathetes66

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Was "Apostolic Succession" even "a thing" in the NT - according to NT writers?

No. NT teaching is plurality of leadership not succession of one leader over others. That is the error of the Nicolaitans: rulership OVER the laity, not servants of Christ & protecting them, leaving an example.

Jesus taught against it. Paul taught against it. Peter taught against it.

Matt 23:1-12 ...you are all brethren...

Is the priesthood of all believers biblical? | GotQuestions.org

I Pet 2:4-10 Priesthood of the believer in Christ
 
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Albion

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Apparently then - even If apostolic succession were "a thing" that happened (other than for Judas of course) -- it was apparently "not worth mentioning" by those recording the NT church actions.

And that brings up the question... "how so?"
As I said earlier, A.S. developed in the later first century. That it is valuable and has at least some support in Scripture recommends it. HOW it is to be understood is the main issue, and most people never get to that.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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And John was writing long after that says nothing about it...How odd that he did not consider the "detail" of apostolic succession worth mentioning if indeed it happened.

You're doing it again. You're making a case for a point based on the absence of contradicting scripture. Like I said, you could make that kind of logic work for any whim, true or false.
 
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BobRyan

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You're doing it again. You're making a case for a point based on the absence of contradicting scripture.

wrong - this has nothing to do with "contradicting scripture" it has to do with "looking" at scripture to see how the NT writers presented this topic -- was it of high concern or did it not make even honorable mention,, or was it not actually a thing at all?

It is not an argument to say "no successor can be chosen"

Like I said, you could make that kind of logic work for any whim, true or false.

wrong again. Looking at the practice of people today with a strong belief in apostolic succession - shows that they "mention it" and "are interested in it". The question from scripture is to note how it compares. IS this a big topic where they are introducing apostolic succession in a new religion and getting everyone on board with this new idea? Or does it not even make honorable mention even if it was being done.

If it was not worthy of mention - but was being done... why is that?
 
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BobRyan

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After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph
^ Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, Book III

Well as the OP points out - James is killed in Acts 12.. no destruction of Jerusalem there
Then Paul is commissioned - in Acts 13 -- still no destruction of Jerusalem or appointing successor
Then years later the council meets in Acts 15 - -- still no destruction of Jerusalem or appointing successor
Then years later the council meets in Acts 21 with Paul in Jerusalem -- still no destruction of Jerusalem or appointing successor

Your source says "it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James"

So then .. hearsay? or fact?

I wouldn't mind if some document also shows it as historic fact but "it is said" leaves it at hearsay.
 
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FenderTL5

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.."looking" at scripture to see how the NT writers presented this topic -- was it of high concern or did it not make even honorable mention,, or was it not actually a thing at all?
It is not an argument to say "no successor can be chosen"
The question from scripture is to note how it compares. IS this a big topic where they are introducing apostolic succession in a new religion and getting everyone on board with this new idea? Or does it not even make honorable mention even if it was being done.

If it was not worthy of mention - but was being done... why is that?
The NT church was expecting the imminent return of Christ. So setting up a church in perpetuity was not an issue they specifically addressed. As Albion referred to, it became an issue in the late first century and early second century (post New Testament).
otoh, There is a New Testament model given for how new leaders and successors were chosen and "ordained."

For example:
deacons
"Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them. Acts 6:3-6

Bishops
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23

For Paul
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9:17-19

Paul to Timothy
For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 2 Tim. 1:6
Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 1 Tim. 4:14

There could be more examples.
In each case, the existing Apostles/presbytry appoint the new/subsequent clergy with prayer, fasting and the laying on of hands.

Then there is the early Church witness:

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" First Epistle of Clement Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 A.D. 80


"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" Hegesippus Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 A.D. 180


"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:3:1 A.D. 189


"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" Tertullian Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 A.D. 200
 
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BobRyan

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The NT church was expecting the imminent return of Christ. So setting up a church in perpetuity was not an issue they specifically addressed. As Albion referred to, it became an issue in the late first century and early second century

By the time you get to the "early second century" you either need to "replace all the Apostles including Paul" or just go with the idea that the age of apostles had passed since even in the replacement of Judas - the "criteria" for an Apostle had to be someone who had been with them during the ministry of Christ.

The Holy Spirit makes an exception in the case of Paul - but the rule in Acts 1 would not make it easy to find "more replacements" in the early second century.
 
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FenderTL5

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By the time you get to the "early second century" you either need to "replace all the Apostles including Paul" or just go with the idea that the age of apostles had passed since even in the replacement of Judas - the "criteria" for an Apostle had to be someone who had been with them during the ministry of Christ.

The Holy Spirit makes an exception in the case of Paul - but the rule in Acts 1 would not make it easy to find "more replacements" in the early second century.
"Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry"
First Epistle of Clement Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 A.D. 80

Of course they appointed successors using an established protocol.
I'm not sure what point you're making - unless you are trying to say Christianity ended with the death of the Apostles.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And that brings up the question... "how so?"
Jesus warned against men's tradition trumping the truth, tradition trampling truth even with no Scriptural nor true spiritual cause nor support thereof.....
But Jesus DID NOT eliminate men's tradition - it remains a temptation to sin until Jesus Returns.
 
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Albion

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By the time you get to the "early second century" you either need to "replace all the Apostles including Paul" or just go with the idea that the age of apostles had passed since even in the replacement of Judas - the "criteria" for an Apostle had to be someone who had been with them during the ministry of Christ.
I regret having to point this out, but what I am reading here suggests that you do not know what the term 'Apostolic Succession' means. We'd better get that straight before turning to whether it is justified or not.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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In Acts 1 we have the apostolic succession for Judas.

But then nothing after that even though the apostle James was killed at the time of Acts 12 long before 70 AD. And yet in the recording of that event - no mention of succession for James in Acts 12.

No mention succession for James when Paul is commissioned in Acts 13,
no mention of it at the Acts 15 council ,
no mention of it in the Acts 21 meeting of the council with Paul about other Christian Jews in Jerusalem.

And John was writing long after that says nothing about it...How odd that he did not consider the "detail" of apostolic succession worth mentioning if indeed it happened.

Apparently then - even If apostolic succession were "a thing" that happened (other than for Judas of course) -- it was apparently "not worth mentioning" by those recording the NT church actions.

And that brings up the question... "how so?"

Acts 20:28
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 3:1
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
 
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GingerBeer

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In Acts 1 we have the apostolic succession for Judas. But then nothing after that
Succession means what comes after, as in succeeding events. Apostolic succession would be what happened after the twelve apostles chosen by the Lord (including Matthias) died. Who led Christians then, who taught and presided in the congregations.

It doesn't need a bible verse to state the obvious. The apostles did die and the church continued with leaders and followers. Elders, bishops, deacons served during the apostolic era were there such office bearers after the apostles died? Yes, history says so. These are the successors of the apostles as leaders in the church. With the bishops presiding, the elders aiding the bishops in their pastoral work and the deacons seeing to the day to day needs of the people.
 
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Albion

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Acts 20:28
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 3:1
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
None of that describes Apostolic Succession, however. It merely speaks of various types of clergy.
 
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