Was Adam, God's 'First Contact' with an Intelligent, free willed, Life Form, other than Himself?

[StevenMerten]

I read Msgr Pope's http://blog.adw.org/2018/12/jesus-come-adam-not-sinned-wait-long-coming-2/ . It was from Michie's thread. I responded at the article site. My response was read by monitors and posted at the site. My response is quoted below.

I am interested to know how people see God's relationship with man. Do you see Adam as God's 'First Contact' with an intelligent, free willed, life form outside Himself.

Hello Msgr. Pope,
I think we should consider free willed Adam being God’s ‘First Contact’ with intelligent life, other than Himself.

Second Psalm puts Jesus’, ‘Eternally Begotten of God’, at Jesus’ Resurrection. If we consider Jesus being Eternally born into Omni-Presence to all physical time, past, present and future, upon His Resurrection, Jesus can go from His Resurrection, to bring all of Creation into existence, as Omni-Present to all physical time, Eternal, God. Spiritually, the physical Incarnation could have happened after Jesus’ Eternal birth to God the Father, upon His Resurrection into the Spiritual Realm.

The Book of Job indicates the saints, ‘Sons of God’, were present at Creation. It seems saints, becoming Eternally begotten of God, at the end of physical time, from then on, also live in Spiritual omni-presence to the whole of physical time, and can watch God bring Creation into existence.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why did God create man, Adam, and then recreate man, Adam and Eve? There seems to be a learning curve for God, once ‘First Contact’ is made and God discusses with man what needs to be done to correct the situation. God seems to cherish His relationship with man, in which the future is not yet laid out.

To us, presently existing in the physical time realm, God Exists in Omni-Presence to the whole of physical time. To our God in the Spiritual Realm, He seems to watch and learn how free-willed man’s actions play out, after ‘First Contact’, upon Creation.

What do you think?​

 

[Ken Rank]

I read Msgr Pope's http://blog.adw.org/2018/12/jesus-come-adam-not-sinned-wait-long-coming-2/ . It was from Michie's thread. I responded at the article site. My response was read by monitors and posted at the site. My response is quoted below.

I am interested to know how people see God's relationship with man. Do you see Adam as God's 'First Contact' with an intelligent, free willed, life form outside Himself.

Hello Msgr. Pope,
I think we should consider free willed Adam being God’s ‘First Contact’ with intelligent life, other than Himself.

Second Psalm puts Jesus’, ‘Eternally Begotten of God’, at Jesus’ Resurrection. If we consider Jesus being Eternally born into Omni-Presence to all physical time, past, present and future, upon His Resurrection, Jesus can go from His Resurrection, to bring all of Creation into existence, as Omni-Present to all physical time, Eternal, God. Spiritually, the physical Incarnation could have happened after Jesus’ Eternal birth to God the Father, upon His Resurrection into the Spiritual Realm.

The Book of Job indicates the saints, ‘Sons of God’, were present at Creation. It seems saints, becoming Eternally begotten of God, at the end of physical time, from then on, also live in Spiritual omni-presence to the whole of physical time, and can watch God bring Creation into existence.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why did God create man, Adam, and then recreate man, Adam and Eve? There seems to be a learning curve for God, once ‘First Contact’ is made and God discusses with man what needs to be done to correct the situation. God seems to cherish His relationship with man, in which the future is not yet laid out.

To us, presently existing in the physical time realm, God Exists in Omni-Presence to the whole of physical time. To our God in the Spiritual Realm, He seems to watch and learn how free-willed man’s actions play out, after ‘First Contact’, upon Creation.

What do you think?​

Pertaining to the question.... you needed to add, 'I have no clue." Great question though... I look forward to any insights some might share.

 

[StevenMerten]

Pertaining to the question.... you needed to add, 'I have no clue." Great question though... I look forward to any insights some might share.

Hello Ken
Well, there is only One Savior, Jesus Christ, in the Holy Trinity. And that Savior died on our earth (never to die again), for the sins of Adam and his descendants. That is a big clue.

 

[Dave-W]

"First" assumes time.

God lives outside of time.

 

[Tolworth John]

God is Three in One, so God the Father had had dealing with God the Son and with God the Spirit. They are independant intelligent supernatural beings who are also united.
Adam is there creation, other than humanity there isno other intelligernt life.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken
Well, there is only One Savior, Jesus Christ, in the Holy Trinity. And that Savior died on our earth (never to die again), for the sins of Adam and his descendants. That is a big clue.

I didn't say I don't have an answer, Steven, I was simply looking forward to whatever others share. Be blessed.

 

[StevenMerten]

I didn't say I don't have an answer, Steven, I was simply looking forward to whatever others share. Be blessed.

Peace Ken,
I am only making conversation to explore the Nature of God.

 

[trophy33]

"When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice."
Job 38:7

Angels are much older beings than humans. Angels were before stars were made and stars are billions of years old.

 

[StevenMerten]

God is Three in One, so God the Father had had dealing with God the Son and with God the Spirit. They are independant intelligent supernatural beings who are also united.
Adam is there creation, other than humanity there isno other intelligernt life.

Hello John,
When do you say that Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God, and now lives in Omni-Presence, to all past, present and future, physical time, as Eternal God, with God the Father?

The Bible indicates that Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God upon His Resurrection, after His Death on the Cross, on earth.

John 17:4
"I have given you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. Do you now, Father, give me glory at your side, a glory I had with you before the world began."

Psalms 2:7
The LORD said to me, 'You are my son; this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nations for an inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession.

Acts 2:33
"Exalted at God's right hand, he first received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, then poured this Spirit out on us. This is what you now see and hear. David did not go up to heaven, yet David says,

'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Therefore let the whole house of Israel know beyond any doubt that God has made both Lord and Messiah this Jesus whom you crucified.'"

Matthew 28:18 (Jesus is speaking after His resurrection.)
Jesus came forward and addressed them in these words: "Full authority has been given to me both in heaven and on earth. . . ."

Revelation 1:17
" . . . I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live forever and ever. . . ."

Revelation 2:8
"The First and the Last who once died but now lives has this to say. . . ."
​

 

[AvilaSurfer]

"When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice."
Job 38:7

Angels are much older beings than humans. Angels were before stars were made and stars are billions of years old.

Yeah, I was gonna say angels.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Book of Job indicates the saints, ‘Sons of God’, were present at Creation. It seems saints, becoming Eternally begotten of God, at the end of physical time, from then on, also live in Spiritual omni-presence to the whole of physical time, and can watch God bring Creation into existence.​

Hi Steven, where does the Bible tell us that the "sons of God" mentioned in Job were "saints" (rather than the angelic host)? Also, Satan is mentioned as being among the "sons of God" (e.g. Job 1:6), so if the "sons of God" are actually the "saints" (and not the host of Heaven), wouldn't that mean that Satan, the "serpent of old", is also numbered among the "saints" then?

Getting back to your opening question, we know that there are both angels and demons, IOW, Holy/Elect angels and Fallen angels, which seems to indicate that God gave the angels "free will", yes? So if the "morning stars"/"sons of God" (Job 38:7) are indeed the heavenly host (as I believe they have always be touted to be, yes?), then it seems to me that they, not Adam, must have been the first intelligent, free-willed beings that God created .. e.g. John 1:3.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. -

Peace Ken, I am only making conversation to explore the Nature of God.

Definitely a subject to be approached with much fear and trembling, yes?
.
.

Deuteronomy 29
29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.​

 

[StevenMerten]

"When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice."
Job 38:7

Angels are much older beings than humans. Angels were before stars were made and stars are billions of years old.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Hello Myst,
You forgot the Saints. The Saints were there at Creation also according to Job 38. When were the 'sons of God' who are the Saints, eternally begotten of God? Jesus tells us that we will be judged according to our actions, those Jesus judges into heaven, upon Judgement Day, will be eternally begotten of God, and then, it seems according to Job 38, live in spiritual omni-presence to the whole of physical time, where they can go and watch Creation come into existence.

 

[trophy33]

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Hello Myst,
You forgot the Saints. The Saints were there at Creation also according to Job 38. When were the 'sons of God' who are the Saints, eternally begotten of God? Jesus tells us that we will be judged according to our actions, those Jesus judges into heaven, upon Judgement Day, will be eternally begotten of God, and then, it seems according to Job 38, live in spiritual omni-presence to the whole of physical time, where they can go and watch Creation come into existence.

In Septuagint, the verse is simply "angels". I suppose thats the meaning of "the sons of God"...

 

[StevenMerten]

Hi Steven, where does the Bible tell us that the "sons of God" mentioned in Job were "saints" (rather than the angelic host)? Also, Satan is mentioned as being among the "sons of God" (e.g. Job 1:6), so if the "sons of God" are actually the "saints" (and not the host of Heaven), wouldn't that mean that Satan, the "serpent of old", is also numbered among the "saints" then?

Getting back to your opening question, we know that there are both angels and demons, IOW, Holy/Elect angels and Fallen angels, which seems to indicate that God gave the angels "free will", yes? So if the "morning stars"/"sons of God" (Job 38:7) are indeed the heavenly host (as I believe they have always be touted to be, yes?), then it seems to me that they, not Adam, must have been the first intelligent, free-willed beings that God created .. e.g. John 1:3.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. -
Definitely a subject to be approached with much fear and trembling, yes?
.
.

Deuteronomy 29
29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.​

Hello Worm2,

John 3:3
Jesus gave him this answer: "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." "How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he return to his mother's womb and be born over again?" Jesus replied: "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."
​

Was Satan 'begotten of God'? Jesus assures us that no one can enter into heaven without being 'begotten of God'. The term 'Satan' is used as a symbol to represent man's evil human pride on earth. Even St. Peter is refereed to as 'Satan', when St. Peter tries to make Jesus stumble.

The 'Satan' you see falling from heaven to earth, in Isaiah 14, is not a winged 'angel' in heaven, falling to earth, but instead man's evil human pride in secular power, symbolically falling from heaven, as God's chosen ruler over Israel, when Jesus takes over as King and Ruler over Israel and the world, upon the Apocalypse. God was King and Ruler over Israel, till their fall in 587 B.C., when God put man's evil human pride in secular power, king Nebuchadnezzar and his world dominant power successors, as rulers over Israel. Archangel Michael thrusts 'Satan', man's evil human pride in secular power, symbolically out of heaven, at the precise moment when Jesus is Crowned as King and Rule over the world, upon victory at Armageddon, at our near future Apocalypse.

The term 'Satan', in the bible, is symbolically used by God, in His dealing with man's evil human pride, on earth. Please visit:

Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon​

Matthew 16
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, 'God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.' He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.'

Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations! You said in your heart: 'I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!' Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!

When they see you they will stare, pondering over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and kingdoms quake? Who made the world a desert, razed its cities, and gave his captives no release? All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; But you are cast forth without burial, loathsome and corrupt,Clothed as those slain at sword-point, a trampled corpse. Going down to the pavement of the pit, you will never be one with them in the grave. For you have ruined your land, you have slain your people!

Daniel 2:31
'In your vision, O king, you saw a statue, very large and exceedingly bright, terrifying in appearance as it stood before you. The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs bronze, the legs iron, its feet partly iron and partly tile. While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Luke 20:17
'The stone which the builders rejected has become the keystone of the structure'? The man who falls on that stone will be smashed to pieces, It will make dust of anyone on whom it falls."​

This was the dream; the interpretation we shall also give in the king's presence. You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory; men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold. Another kingdom shall take your place, inferior to yours, then a third kingdom, of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break in pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks in pieces and crushes everything else. The feet and toes you saw, partly of potter's tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the iron mixed with clay tile, and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay. In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. That is the meaning of the stone you saw hewn from the mountain without a hand being put to it, which broke in pieces the tile, iron, bronze, silver, and gold. The great God has revealed to the king what shall be in the future; this is exactly what you dreamed, and its meaning is sure.

Revelation 12:6
Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One.
​

 

[StevenMerten]

In Septuagint, the verse is simply "angels". I suppose thats the meaning of "the sons of God"...

Hello Myst,
If the 'sons of God' are angels, then who are the 'morning stars'?

'Morning stars' are angels. 'Sons of God' are Saints.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

 

[St_Worm2]

Was Satan 'begotten of God'? Jesus assures us that no one can enter into heaven without being 'begotten of God'. The term 'Satan' is used as a symbol to represent man's evil human pride on earth. Even St. Peter is refereed to as 'Satan', when St. Peter tries to make Jesus stumble. The 'Satan' you see falling from heaven to earth, in Isaiah 14, is not a winged 'angel' in heaven, falling to earth, but instead man's evil human pride in secular power, symbolically falling from heaven, as God's chosen ruler over Israel, when Jesus takes over as King and Ruler over Israel and the world, upon the Apocalypse. God was King and Ruler over Israel, till their fall in 587 B.C., when God put man's evil human pride in secular power, king Nebuchadnezzar and his world dominant power successors, as rulers over Israel. Archangel Michael thrusts 'Satan', man's evil human pride in secular power, symbolically out of heaven, at the precise moment when Jesus is Crowned as King and Rule over the world, upon victory at Armageddon, at our near future Apocalypse.

The term 'Satan', in the bible, is symbolically used by God, in His dealing with man's evil human pride, on earth. Please visit:

Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon​

Matthew 16
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, 'God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.' He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.'

Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations! You said in your heart: 'I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!' Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!

When they see you they will stare, pondering over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and kingdoms quake? Who made the world a desert, razed its cities, and gave his captives no release? All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; But you are cast forth without burial, loathsome and corrupt,Clothed as those slain at sword-point, a trampled corpse. Going down to the pavement of the pit, you will never be one with them in the grave. For you have ruined your land, you have slain your people!

Daniel 2:31
'In your vision, O king, you saw a statue, very large and exceedingly bright, terrifying in appearance as it stood before you. The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs bronze, the legs iron, its feet partly iron and partly tile. While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Luke 20:17
'The stone which the builders rejected has become the keystone of the structure'? The man who falls on that stone will be smashed to pieces, It will make dust of anyone on whom it falls."​

This was the dream; the interpretation we shall also give in the king's presence. You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory; men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold. Another kingdom shall take your place, inferior to yours, then a third kingdom, of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break in pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks in pieces and crushes everything else. The feet and toes you saw, partly of potter's tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the iron mixed with clay tile, and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay. In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. That is the meaning of the stone you saw hewn from the mountain without a hand being put to it, which broke in pieces the tile, iron, bronze, silver, and gold. The great God has revealed to the king what shall be in the future; this is exactly what you dreamed, and its meaning is sure.

Revelation 12:6
Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One.
​

Hi again Steven, I am not RC (so perhaps I am misunderstanding your church's thoughts on this matter), but it seems to me that your thoughts about some of this stray pretty far away from both the Biblical and Traditional teachings of the RCC. For instance:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil.” The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” (2538)

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”271 (1850; 2482)

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” (1033–1037; 1022)

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning,” who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” 274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God. (538–540; 550; 2846–2849)

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries—of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature—to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” (309; 1673; 412; 2850–2854)

~Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 99).​

--David

 

[trophy33]

Hello Myst,
If the 'sons of God' are angels, then who are the 'morning stars'?

'Morning stars' are angels. 'Sons of God' are Saints.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

There is no "morning stars" in the verse in the Septuagint, so its a question related only to the masoretic text...

The verse in the Septuagint is as simple as I posted it:

When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice.
ὅτε ἐγενήθησαν ἄστρα, ᾔνεσάν με φωνῇ μεγάλῃ πάντες ἄγγελοί μου.
Jb 38:7

 

[StevenMerten]

Hi again Steven, I am not RC (so perhaps I am misunderstanding your church's thoughts on this matter), but it seems to me that your thoughts about some of this stray pretty far away from both the Biblical and Traditional teachings of the RCC. For instance:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil.” The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” (2538)

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”271 (1850; 2482)

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” (1033–1037; 1022)

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning,” who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” 274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God. (538–540; 550; 2846–2849)

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries—of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature—to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” (309; 1673; 412; 2850–2854)

~Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 99).​

--David

John 3:3
Jesus gave him this answer: "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." "How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he return to his mother's womb and be born over again?" Jesus replied: "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."​

Hello David,
I thought the 'born again' Protestants were supposedly the experts on who, and who cannot, be in heaven?

Can an evil abomination like Satan, actually be in heaven? "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."

The Book of Revelation is focused on the tremendous event of Jesus taking over as King and Ruler of the world. This happens when 'The Seventh Trumpet blows', at the apocalyptic Battle of Armageddon. It is at this time that Archangel Michael hurls Satan out of heaven.

What do you say, Has the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation Blown already?

I say it has not.

Revelation 10:7
At the time when you hear the seventh angel blow his trumpet , the mysterious plan of God shall be fulfilled, as he promised to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet. There were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world now belongs to our Lord and to his Anointed, and he will reign forever and ever'.

Revelation 16:16
They then assembled the kings in the place that is named Armageddon in Hebrew.
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. A loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, 'It is done.'
​

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.

Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: 'Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed.'​

 

[StevenMerten]

There is no "morning stars" in the verse in the Septuagint, so its a question related only to the masoretic text...

The verse in the Septuagint is as simple as I posted it:

When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice.
ὅτε ἐγενήθησαν ἄστρα, ᾔνεσάν με φωνῇ μεγάλῃ πάντες ἄγγελοί μου.
Jb 38:7

Mark 9:2
After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them. Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.​

Hello Myst,
Wow! Elijah and Moses are alive, and not dead, even before Jesus died for their sins upon His future Crucifixion! Elijah and Moses are right there talking to Jesus during His life time!

Jesus uses the resurrection to show the Omnipotent Power of God. Jesus assures the Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, and not dead. We know that it is only through the Power of Jesus death on the Cross that St. Abraham, St. Isaac and St. Jacob can rise into eternal life after death. We know that Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God, First, and at His future, in physical time, Resurrection. Yet all these Saints are walking around, already, before Jesus death on the cross. Now that truly is an Omnipotent God!

Jesus tells us that Abraham has already seen Jesus, Coming into His Kingdom, even before Jesus glory on the cross has happened. We on, physical time earth, have yet to see Jesus Come into His Kingdom, on earth. That happens at our near future apocalypse.

In the spiritual realm, all this physical time stuff, that God created upon Creation, has no hold on Saints. We are not talking 'predestination'. We are talking about Saints no longer having any constraints by the laws of physical time that God built into the physical creation of the Universe. Saints, judged into heaven by Jesus, upon their deaths, on earth, live outside of physical time.

Do you agree that people judged into heaven, at any point in physical time, live in the spiritual realm, outside the confines of physical time? Therefore Saints can go and 'Shout for Joy' as Jesus and the Father bring Creation into existence.

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

John 8:50
'Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.' (So) the Jews said to him, 'Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?' Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.'

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.​

Luke 20:37
Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God; While the LORD'S own portion was Jacob,His hereditary share was Israel.

Wisdom 5:5
See how he is accounted among the sons of God; how his lot is with the saints!​

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello David,
I thought the 'born again' Protestants were supposedly the experts on who, and who cannot, be in heaven?

Hi Steven, we just try to point out what the Bible seems to say .. cf John 6:44, 14:6; Acts 4:12, so that is where our expertise both begins and ends.

Can an evil abomination like Satan, actually be in heaven? "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."

I only asked because of your belief that the "sons of God", mentioned in various places in the OT, were omnipresent "saints" and not the angelic host, and Job numbers Satan among the "sons of God".

Personally, I believe Satan is lost forever as the first and foremost of the demons/fallen angels, and as such, will be spending eternity in the Lake of Fire, not in Heaven or on the New Earth (just FYI).

Question, you don't believe that Satan is a person or being (even though he is spoken of as if he is one by God), but you do believe that the others spoken of in Job (the morning stars/sons of God) in the same context as Satan is 'are' actual persons/beings? (IOW, saints and/or any other angel than Satan?)

I wish you had started this thread on a different board than OBOB, because having an open discussion here, for me, would most likely end up being problematic since I am not a RC. It's also why I am letting your church and the CCC do my talking for me for now

--David