Was Abraham Saved by Faith Alone? Are the Protestants Right?

narnia59

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Salvation by works is a pharisaical vice and not a Christian virtue. (Romans 4:5-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).
The idea that Catholics believe in salvation by works is false.

Salvation is by grace. Stop. Period. Nothing else.

We receive grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The question that matters is when the Bible speaks of having faith, what does that mean. Protestantism has reduced faith to simply meaning an intellectual act of accepting Christ as Savior (not even as Lord in some cases). However, that is not what Biblical faith is.

For example, people love to quote John 3:16 -- that any who believe in Christ will have everlasting life.

Rarely do people quote Hebrews 5:9 -- that Christ is the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Obedience is not optional, and is part of a Biblical faith. And obedience requires works. It is what sanctifies us. That is why Hebrews 12:14 tells us to strive for holiness, without which we will not see the Lord.

However, these are not the works of the Mosaic law that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:8-9. They are the "good works" that he speaks of in Ephesians 2:10 -- the ones that were prepared for us by God for all eternity.

But we are not capable of doing these works on our own -- it requires God's grace to sanctify us and make us whole. That is why even though works are a necessary part of a saving faith, we cannot boast in them. Because at least in the Catholic view, everything is grace. Stop. Period. Nothing else.
 
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Danthemailman

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The idea that Catholics believe in salvation by works is false.

Salvation is by grace. Stop. Period. Nothing else.

We receive grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The question that matters is when the Bible speaks of having faith, what does that mean. Protestantism has reduced faith to simply meaning an intellectual act of accepting Christ as Savior (not even as Lord in some cases). However, that is not what Biblical faith is.

For example, people love to quote John 3:16 -- that any who believe in Christ will have everlasting life.

Rarely do people quote Hebrews 5:9 -- that Christ is the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Obedience is not optional, and is part of a Biblical faith. And obedience requires works. It is what sanctifies us. That is why Hebrews 12:14 tells us to strive for holiness, without which we will not see the Lord.

However, these are not the works of the Mosaic law that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:8-9. They are the "good works" that he speaks of in Ephesians 2:10 -- the ones that were prepared for us by God for all eternity.

But we are not capable of doing these works on our own -- it requires God's grace to sanctify us and make us whole. That is why even though works are a necessary part of a saving faith, we cannot boast in them. Because at least in the Catholic view, everything is grace. Stop. Period. Nothing else.
The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works
 
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Danthemailman

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I agree its crystal clear. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

It's also crystal clear that was not the first time Abraham believed God, and either it wasn't credited to him as righteousness the first time, or faith making us righteous is not a one-time event in a person's life. The correct answer is the second one.
The second one is the incorrect answer and is typically taught by those who teach salvation by works, but suit yourself.
 
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narnia59

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The second one is the incorrect answer and is typically taught by those who teach salvation by works, but suit yourself.
So you believe that the first time someone believes doesn't count, and the second time they do they're justified?
 
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WarriorAngel

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Jesus said: Faith has cured you, now go and sin NO MORE.
That's effort.
That's works via faith.

St Augustine speaks of predestination referring to the believers via Christ.
We the fallen were predestined to be saved by the faith of the LORD saving us through His life and death on the cross.


Faith requires much more than saying once, and you're set, that you believe.

Because so many various factors.
Continue sinning on the belief you're saved because of one profession.
Ignoring the hungry, homeless, unclothed.

The seven corporal acts of mercy: to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty, to clothe the naked, to give shelter to travellers, to visit the sick, to visit the imprisoned, and to bury the dead.
 
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Danthemailman

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So you believe that the first time someone believes doesn't count, and the second time they do they're justified?
It's the object of our belief that counts. The demons believe "mental assent" that there is one God (James 2:19) but they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Not just any belief saves.
 
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Danthemailman

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That’s not a Catholic source Dan. It is completely false.
I know what Catholics teach. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and that article from the Justforcatholics website was written by a former Roman Catholic who also knows what Catholics teach.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I know what Catholics teach. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and that article from the Justforcatholics website was written by a former Roman Catholic who also knows what Catholics teach.
I've come to find most who were raised Catholic did not know what the Church taught but often reference sites outside of Catholicism teaching, to teach for what they say Catholics teach.

So, I am certain you don't know what Catholicism teaches. You only know what some Protestant/sites/teachers/pastors have told you Catholicism teaches.
AND there's a difference.
A big difference.
 
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Michie

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I know what Catholics teach. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and that article from the Justforcatholics website was written by a former Roman Catholic who also knows what Catholics teach.
That former Roman Catholic like most former Roman Catholics absolutely does not know what the Church teaches. You are really pushing your luck here in OBOB....
 
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narnia59

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I know what Catholics teach. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and that article from the Justforcatholics website was written by a former Roman Catholic who also knows what Catholics teach.
Being Catholic, either currently or in the past, does not mean you know anything about what the Catholic Church teaches. And when you come and post things that are contrary to what the Church teaches, it simply proves the point.

You need to answer the question -- since you deny that justification is a process that isn't just a one time event, then why was Abraham's faith not credited to him as righteousness the first time he believed?

Hebrews 11:8-9 "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise."
 
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WarriorAngel

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Being Catholic, either currently or in the past, does not mean you know anything about what the Catholic Church teaches. And when you come and post things that are contrary to what the Church teaches, it simply proves the point.

You need to answer the question -- since you deny that justification is a process that isn't just a one time event, then why was Abraham's faith not credited to him as righteousness the first time he believed?

Hebrews 11:8-9 "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise."


By faith Abraham was led by the Holy Spirit. That he believed led him into action.
He could have sat at home and said, yea I believe I should do this or that... but meh. I believe and that is suffice.

WORKS are the actions produced by faith.
THUS we know them by their fruits.. their actions - their works.

Anyone who states faith alone, ignores all actions produced by the faith... which is simply works.

MAYBE this is why they're so confused.
 
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Markie Boy

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The idea that salvation is a one-time, one and done thing - you had faith and boom - you are in forever - is so absent from Scripture, and so absent from the early church writings.

The only way to get to it is by only looking at select parts of Scripture. My biggest problem with it, is how much I have to go AGAINST Scripture, and even the words of Jesus to agree with it.

Some concepts make no sense, like - Strive to enter through the narrow gate. Why didn't Jesus says - get saved once and you are in?

Endure to the end? Scripture would have had to say - no worries, you got saved back there - nothing you do after matters.

But it's not about works and earning salvation. It's about abiding in Christ. You can choose to abide in Him, or not. And it is about our relationship with Him. If not - that branch is cut off from the vine.
 
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narnia59

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The idea that salvation is a one-time, one and done thing - you had faith and boom - you are in forever - is so absent from Scripture, and so absent from the early church writings.

The only way to get to it is by only looking at select parts of Scripture. My biggest problem with it, is how much I have to go AGAINST Scripture, and even the words of Jesus to agree with it.

Some concepts make no sense, like - Strive to enter through the narrow gate. Why didn't Jesus says - get saved once and you are in?

Endure to the end? Scripture would have had to say - no worries, you got saved back there - nothing you do after matters.

But it's not about works and earning salvation. It's about abiding in Christ. You can choose to abide in Him, or not. And it is about our relationship with Him. If not - that branch is cut off from the vine.
Yes, the mental gymnastics required to hold that position are astounding.

I have the John MacArthur study Bible. He firmly rejects that you can lose your salvation. His explanation for every verse that contradicts that is that those people were never really saved.

So in the parable of the seed and the sower where the Bible says that some "believed for a while and in time of temptation fall away" -- according to him these are people who didn't have real faith. Even though the Bible says they "believed for a while."

When Jesus say that "every branch of mine that bears no fruit" the Father will take away -- MacArthur says that's referring to people who weren't genuine believers. Which begs the question -- how did they get to be a branch "of mine" according to Jesus if they were never a believer in the first place?

When St. Peter writes ”For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” (2 Peter 2:20-21). MacArthur again says this is referring to "false" believers, not true belivers. But how could someone who was not a true believer ever have escaped the defilements of the world? How could they ever have known the way of righteousness?

Same thing when the book of Hebrews says "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” (Hebrews 6:4-6). MacArthur says this is not speaking about true believers. How can someone who was never a true believer have ever become a partaker of the Holy Spirit? Been enlightened? Tasted the heavenly gift? Tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come?

There are probably a dozen more examples I could point to from his study Bible. It's a perfect example of starting with a position (once-saved, always-saved) and then bending Scripture to make it fit what you want to believe. Instead of allowing Scripture to form your beliefs.
 
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