Was Abraham a Unitarian?

[Jack Terrence]

In Genesis 20:13 our translations have Abraham saying to Abimelech,

"God caused me to wander."

But the Hebrew literally says,

"The Gods caused me to wander."

The word "elohim" is always governed by the verb. If the verb is singular the word elohim is singular. But if the verb is plural the word elohim is plural. The verb is plural in Genesis 20:13. So the word elohim is plural. Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

No one denies that Abraham said that Gods (pl) caused him to wander. But some Unitarian commentators who are desperate escape the fact that God is a plural unity, have suggested that Abraham was speaking about YHWH in the plural because he was addressing Abimelech, an idolater who worshipped many gods. But this explanation miserably fails for two reasons:

1. Abimilech's polytheism was NOT the reason that Abraham said that Gods caused him to wander. Abraham had just said that the absence of the fear of God (sing) was the reason he lied about Sarah being his sister. It had nothing to do with his saying that Gods (pl) had caused him to wander.

Why would Abraham boldly confess God to Abimilech in the singular, and then in the next breath shrink back and say that Gods (pl) caused him to wander? The Unitarian explanation makes no sense!

2. In Gen 35:7 we find a second instance of elohim with the plural verb. About Jacob's building the altar at Bethel our translations say,

"And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there God revealed himself (plural) when he fled from his brother"

The phrase "God revealed himself to him" has the plural verb niglu meaning "they revealed themselves." The scholars say that we could literally translate this phrase as "the gods revealed themselves to him."

"And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there the Gods revealed themselves when he fled from his brother"

In this instance we cannot say that someone is trying to speak in the terms of an idolater since it is the narrator (Moses) himself who says these words.

 

[gasman64]

The original texts were not written in Hebrew. But in Ancient scholarly Egyptian. The language had no single version when referring to gods so every reference to God was plural. Later Hebrew writings corrected this to singular. I wouldn't bet the farm on the grammar if I was you.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The original texts were not written in Hebrew. But in Ancient scholarly Egyptian. The language had no single version when referring to gods so every reference to God was plural. Later Hebrew writings corrected this to singular. I wouldn't bet the farm on the grammar if I was you.

The oldest extant manuscripts of the Bible are, in fact, in Hebrew. They are not known to have been rendered or translated into Egyptian (i.e., Coptic) until the 2nd century AD.

Thank you for your unintended admission that the original Hebrew Scriptures sometimes refer to God in the plural.

 

[gasman64]

The oldest extant manuscripts of the Bible are, in fact, in Hebrew. They are not known to have been rendered or translated into Egyptian (i.e., Coptic) until the 2nd century AD.

Thank you for your unintended admission that the original Hebrew Scriptures sometimes refer to God in the plural.

What language was Moses educated in? The mighty Egyptian language of Hebrew? It is common knowledge amongst linguistic archaeologists that Hebrew first appeared after 1000 bc (probably around 850 bc), 500+ years after Moses. So if Moses was the orchestrator of the torah, how miraculous that he wrote it in a language that hadn't been invented yet. They may be the oldest surviving ones manuscripts, but people existed before written history started. and those will be copies of copies and not even original themselves. Ding ding....I believe that round goes to me. Your turn

 

[Ishraqiyun]

What language was Moses educated in? The mighty Egyptian language of Hebrew? It is common knowledge amongst linguistic archaeologists that Hebrew first appeared after 1000 bc (probably around 850 bc), 500+ years after Moses. So if Moses was the orchestrator of the torah

How many scholars believe Moses actually authored Genesis though? If he wasn't the author then the language he spoke/read wouldn't come into play.

 

[gasman64]

How many scholars believe Moses actually authored Genesis though? If he wasn't the author then the language he spoke/read wouldn't come into play.

I will answer your incredibly ignorant comment. I said 'if' he wrote it, but the law had been a part of the culture before Israel was colonized, before the earliest Hebrew language records, so the language used is most likely from the place they last came from. Language is always important. It implies meaning and understanding. Which is why some languages don't translate well into each other.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

It's possible (maybe even probable) that some of the stories and myths that ended up in the book of Genesis existed then. You can find simmilar stories in ancient Babylonian writtings too. That wouldn't imply that the actual book of Genesis we have now was originally authored in Egyptian. It wasn't even in existence untill around about the 6th century BC and at that time the Hebrew language was used. Egyptian language would be almost irrelevant for an understanding of the Hebrew text.

 

[gasman64]

It's possible (maybe even probable) that some of the stories and myths that ended up in the book of Genesis existed then. You can find simmilar stories in ancient Babylonian writtings too. That wouldn't imply that the actual book of Genesis we have now was originally authored in Egyptian. It wasn't even in existence untill around about the 6th century BC and at that time the Hebrew language was used. Egyptian language would be almost irrelevant for an understanding of the Hebrew text.

No one said the book of Genesis in its current format. It would have existed in some sort of writing. Moses was an educated former prince. someone who was scholarly trained in the pre-eminent culture of the day. Maybe it was lost and only oral traditions remained, but it was told more from his perspective so the text would be heavily reliant on his language perspective.

 

[Jack Terrence]

What language was Moses educated in? The mighty Egyptian language of Hebrew? It is common knowledge amongst linguistic archaeologists that Hebrew first appeared after 1000 bc (probably around 850 bc), 500+ years after Moses. So if Moses was the orchestrator of the torah, how miraculous that he wrote it in a language that hadn't been invented yet. They may be the oldest surviving ones manuscripts, but people existed before written history started. and those will be copies of copies and not even original themselves. Ding ding....I believe that round goes to me.

The Bible says that Moses "was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," (Acts 7:22) but also indicates that he maintained contact with his real family. (Exodus 2:8-10, 14). He knew that the Hebrews were his "brothers," not the Egyptians. It is unlikely that the Hebrew slaves would have lost their distinguishing language and culture; they were still known as Hebrews, not as Egyptians.

* So Moses would have known both the Egyptian language as well as the language of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

* But since he wrote for his own people first of all, it is unlikely that he would have written in anything other than their language: Hebrew.

* The oldest extant manuscripts of the Bible are, in fact, in Hebrew. They are not known to have been rendered or translated into Egyptian (i.e., Coptic) until the 2nd century AD.

* Moses had his own mother as his nurse and teacher, so he would likely have learned Hebrew from her.

So if Moses was the orchestrator of the torah, how miraculous that he wrote it in a language that hadn't been invented yet.

Hebrew hadn't been invented yet? LOL!

Joseph spoke both Egyptian and Hebrew. He spoke Egyptian because he spoke to his family through a translator (Genesis 42:23), but he could still speak Hebrew (Genesis 45:12).

If the Israelites had spoken Egyptian only because Hebrew "hadn't been invented yet," then why, when Joseph had spoken to his family in Egyptian, did he use a translator?

 

[Hoshiyya]

It all boils down to the translation of Elohim...

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I should note that I doubt Moses believed in the Trinity or that the wording of Genesis was intended to express that idea which wasn't even known by the Jews of the time. Saying that it was intended as an expression of the Trinity would be anachronistic in the extreme. It would be like saying the book of Genesis was teaching the theory of relativity. Neither concepts were known at the time it was authored. I just thought the Egyptian thing didn't make much sense.

::edit:: I'm not saying the trinity is false. I'm merely pointing out that the author of Genesis would have no knowledge of the idea.

 

[gasman64]

The Bible says that Moses "was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," (Acts 7:22) but also indicates that he maintained contact with his real family. (Exodus 2:8-10, 14). He knew that the Hebrews were his "brothers," not the Egyptians. It is unlikely that the Hebrew slaves would have lost their distinguishing language and culture; they were still known as Hebrews, not as Egyptians.

* So Moses would have known both the Egyptian language as well as the language of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

* But since he wrote for his own people first of all, it is unlikely that he would have written in anything other than their language: Hebrew.

* The oldest extant manuscripts of the Bible are, in fact, in Hebrew. They are not known to have been rendered or translated into Egyptian (i.e., Coptic) until the 2nd century AD.

* Moses had his own mother as his nurse and teacher, so he would likely have learned Hebrew from her.

Hebrew hadn't been invented yet? LOL!

Joseph spoke both Egyptian and Hebrew. He spoke Egyptian because he spoke to his family through a translator (Genesis 42:23), but he could still speak Hebrew (Genesis 45:12).

If the Israelites had spoken Egyptian only because Hebrew "hadn't been invented yet," then why, when Joseph had spoken to his family in Egyptian, did he use a translator?

In his day there was no version of Hebrew. If you put hebrew in front of them they wouldn't have recognised it. They probably spoke a version of Sumerian, like Abraham who was from UR. And over 400 years in captivity, it is highly likely that any language they had before was effectively lost. They would have had to speak in their oppressors language. Each new generation taking on more of egyptian culture. Look at modern day immigrant. Usually their grandchildren lose the ability to speak fluently. In 40 years not 400. After only 70 years in Babylon the hebrews had to relearn everything. I am saying what is likely to have happened. You are arguing silly fantasies that make no sense. Joseph was hiding from them who he was. It was a RUSE so he could check them out. Joseph was raised with their language from before he was taken into captivity. That just didn't occur to you before you used what You thought was your killer blow . And the only known Isrealite there was Joseph until his family arrive. But the language Moses' mother spoke was definately NOT hebrew. You are out of your depth here as you seem to have no understanding of paleo-linguistics and how languages develop and spread,
But here is the main point. You seem to keep missing it. As Hebrew didn't develop until after they possessed the land of Isreal, the torah had to be in a different language, originally. When we read deuteronomy and numbers, they could NOT have been originally been written in an undeveloped language, but more likely a language they all spoke in already. Scholarship
is highly unlikely in their slave language. Think about it BEFORE you reply with more silly argument points.

 

[timbo3]

In Genesis 20:13 our translations have Abraham saying to Abimelech,

"God caused me to wander."

But the Hebrew literally says,

"The Gods caused me to wander."

The word "elohim" is always governed by the verb. If the verb is singular the word elohim is singular. But if the verb is plural the word elohim is plural. The verb is plural in Genesis 20:13. So the word elohim is plural. Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

No one denies that Abraham said that Gods (pl) caused him to wander. But some Unitarian commentators who are desperate escape the fact that God is a plural unity, have suggested that Abraham was speaking about YHWH in the plural because he was addressing Abimelech, an idolater who worshipped many gods. But this explanation miserably fails for two reasons:

1. Abimilech's polytheism was NOT the reason that Abraham said that Gods caused him to wander. Abraham had just said that the absence of the fear of God (sing) was the reason he lied about Sarah being his sister. It had nothing to do with his saying that Gods (pl) had caused him to wander.

Why would Abraham boldly confess God to Abimilech in the singular, and then in the next breath shrink back and say that Gods (pl) caused him to wander? The Unitarian explanation makes no sense!

2. In Gen 35:7 we find a second instance of elohim with the plural verb. About Jacob's building the altar at Bethel our translations say,

"And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there God revealed himself (plural) when he fled from his brother"

The phrase "God revealed himself to him" has the plural verb niglu meaning "they revealed themselves." The scholars say that we could literally translate this phrase as "the gods revealed themselves to him."

"And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there the Gods revealed themselves when he fled from his brother"

In this instance we cannot say that someone is trying to speak in the terms of an idolater since it is the narrator (Moses) himself who says these words.

Taking the literalness of a word is not a good way of translating the Bible. For example, at Ephesians 4:14, it literally says about being tricked "by the dice (Greek kubeia) of men". Does this make sense in English ? The proper rendering reads that person should not be deceived "by the trickery of men." Literal rendition fails to provide the proper understanding.

The word Elohim is indeed plural of El, which means God. However, concerning its use with regard to our Creator, Jehovah God, it denotes excellence or majesty and not a plural personality or a number of gods. To try and push the belief that in regard to Jehovah God that he is multiplicity of gods is once again hoping to find support for the trinity.

The Hebrew word Elohim by itself is used 680 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament). Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible says of Elohim: "gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God."

For example, it is used at Genesis 1:1, whereby it says that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The preceding verb is bara (meaning "create") and is in the singular. In fact, in the five places where it is precedes or immediately follows Elohim, it is in the singular, denoting that God is also singular. In fact, at Deuteronomy 6:4, it says: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God (Elohim) is one Jehovah."

Furthermore, at Isaiah 44, it says: "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel, and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ' I am the first and the last, and besides me (singular) there is no God."(Isa 44:6) And at Isaiah 45, it says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me (singular) there is no God."(Isa 45:5)

Thus, at Genesis 20:13, it is not saying in any form or fashion that God is in reality a set of "Gods", but as has been seen, that the plural of El (Elohim) means excellence or majesty when used specifically with regard to Jehovah, for as Revelation 4:11 says: "You (singular) are worthy, Jehovah, even our God (literally "the God", singular), to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because of your will you (singular) created all things, and because of your (singular) will they existed were created."

There is a continuation to prop up the trinity rather than allowing the Bible to speak for itself.

 

[Hoshiyya]

In Genesis 20:13 our translations have Abraham saying to Abimelech,

"God caused me to wander."

But the Hebrew literally says,

"The Gods caused me to wander."

The word "elohim" . . .

Ever consider that Elohim doesn't mean "god(s)" ?

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Elohim can refer God, but it can also refer to the assembly of God, weather angelic or human.

 

[gasman64]

Ever consider that Elohim doesn't mean "god(s)" ?

El is the singular

 

[Hoshiyya]

El is the singular

Actually it is not.
El is a abbreviation of either Eloah or Elohim.
Eloah is always singular.
Elohim can be singular or plural.

Compare Ephriam. It is the name of one person. It has the -im suffix, yet refers to one person.

In any case, you misinterpeted my question.

My question was: Ever consider that Elohim does not mean "god" or "gods" ?
Or another way of putting it, what does "god" mean ?

The wide variety of usage of the word (Elohim) can be compared to the Sanskrit Deva and the Japanese Kami, which may refer to God, gods, angels or spirits, from the smallest fairy to the greatest of deities. This is basically how the word God, Theos and Deus were originally used as well.

 

[anonymouswho]

Hello everyone. I have been studying this a lot here lately, and I'm not really sure what to believe. I had decided (about 20 minutes ago) not to study this for now, but then I came here and you guys happen to be taking about it. So if you don't mind, I'd like to share what I've been learning and hopefully we can all get a better understanding of what the Scriptures really teach.

First, you should probably know that I believe Yeshua was 100% human. I believe God is His Father (as well as ours), and that the Father is the only true God.

It has always been known that Genesis 1:1 does not make any grammatical sense. Here is the original Hebrew:

B'reshit בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית bara בָּרָ֣א elohim אֱלֹהִ֑ים eth אֵ֥ת hasshamayim הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם wa-eth וְאֵ֥ת erets הָאָֽרֶץ

Notice the apostrophe after the "b" of b'reshit. This is because the original Hebrew doesn't have a definite article inserted there. B'reshit literally says "In beginning". Reshith in Hebrew means "beginning, first, head, principle thing".

John 1:1 says the same thing.

"En (In) arche (beginning/principal thing) en (was) ho (the) logos (reason)"

I have a few interpretations of what this principal things is. The first is Wisdom:

"Wisdom is the principal thing (reshith רֵאשִׁ֣ית); therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." Proverbs 4:7

This confirms other Scriptures:

"The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens." Proverbs 3:19

"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion." Jeremiah 10:12

Or, this principal thing could be Yahweh:

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first (rishon רִאשׁוֹן֙: has the exact same meaning of reshith), and I am the last; and beside (bilade בִּלְעֲדֵי: without/apart from) me there is no God (elohim gods)." Isaiah 44:6

This would parallel with other Scriptures such as:

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28

Or, the principal thing could be Messiah:

"For by (en: in) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (en:in) him, and for him:" Colossians 1:16

To me, this means the word "in" is to understood as "because of". God created everything because of Messiah and for Messiah, because He was a man, the fulfilled Image of God, and God loves mankind.

The next word in Genesis should be either El or Elohim, but instead, it says "bara". Bara cannot mean created, because Hebrew doesn't have abstract words. Take the word "anger" for example. The Hebrew is אַף and it means "nostril, nose", because we flare our nose when we are angry. Therefore, bara has an original meaning of "to cut, form, fashion, prepare". I think prepare is the most appropriate translation of this word, because in every instance of bara, replacing it with prepare makes sense.

"And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down (bara וּבֵרֵאתָ֤: and prepare) for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee." Joshua 17:15 and also 17:18

"Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose (bara בָּרֵ֔א: prepare) thou a place, choose (bara בָּרֵ֔א: prepare) it at the head of the way to the city." Ezekiel 21:19

"Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat (bara לְהַבְרִֽיאֲכֶ֗ם: prepare for yourselves) with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?" 1 Samuel 2:29

So now we have "In beginning/principle thing/first prepared..."

Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and El. I have always understood this as a "plural of majesty" when referring to the one true God. I have a few Scriptures that show this principle being applied to kings and masters. However, I'm not fully convinced that this word is being used in this way here.

So now we have "In beginning/principle thing/first prepared gods (aleph/tav) heavens (and aleph/tav) land."

This seems to imply that the gods, heavens, and land were prepared "in principle thing/first".

The Scriptures do indeed speak of other gods, but we are told to "have no other gods before Him". This could imply that there are other lesser gods (angels/the sons of God), but that Yahweh is the Supreme God.

This is very close to the Babylonian creation myth. In fact, the word translated "formless" in verse 2 is תֹּ֫הוּ tohu, and it means "waste, confusion, chaos", which the myth tells us that the gods put in order. However, the supreme god of Babylon was Marduk, and it is filled with fantastical stories of gods fighting and behaving like humans.

I am against all things Babylonian, but I think there is a way to make sense of this. The founder of Babylon is understood to be Nimrod:

"And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar." Genesis 10:8

Nimrod was the son of Cush and the great-grandson of Noah. Noah would have known the creation account, and would have passed this on to his children. So could there be a bit of truth to the Babylonian myth? Perhaps Nimrod added a bunch of nonsense to this account, since other sources tell us that Nimrod was worshipped as a god.

In the Babylonian account, these gods are the stars and heavenly objects. Genesis tells us that God/gods prepared the stars and heavenly objects. In Babylon, Marduk was the supreme. However, Yahweh tells Moses that He is the God of his fathers, but He did not reveal His name until this moment.

Perhaps Yahweh is the one true God, but He uses the gods to carry out His will. This would seem to fit in nicely with these Scriptures:

"God (elohim gods) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (El God); he judgeth among the gods (elohim)." Psalm 82:1

"And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee." 1 Kings 22:19

"When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel (eloah).
For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance." Deauteronomy 32:8

(The Masoretic Text reads "Isreal", but the Dead Sea Scrolls say "eloah" and the Septuagint says "aggelos theos")

This seems to imply that the Most High separated the nations according to the gods/angels, and took among Himself the people of Israel.

I know this is very long, but I did this on purpose because I'm hoping most won't even read it. I'm basically looking for questions, so that I can rule out everything that is incorrect and come to a better understanding of the Truth. I hope this all makes sense.

Thank you all for your time and God bless you all.

 

[2KnowHim]

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Hi anonymous,
I found this very interesting too...notice it says "unto whom the Word (Logos) came" ?
To me this is what makes us gods, ...if when the Logos comes to us and we receive it, this is what changes our Identity into His. Our Identity is now that of The God, this is also I believe how He does not share His Glory with another. It is no other Identity but His that abides in us.

Another words......No longer I who live but Christ in me....we are only spectators Beholding The Glory that The Son had in The Father before the world began...John 17:-
The Father reveals The Son and The Son Reveals The Father.

Blessings

 

[anonymouswho]

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Hi anonymous,
I found this very interesting too...notice it says "unto whom the Word (Logos) came" ?
To me this is what makes us gods, ...if when the Logos comes to us and we receive it, this is what changes our Identity into His. Our Identity is now that of The God, this is also I believe how He does not share His Glory with another. It is no other Identity but His that abides in us.

Another words......No longer I who live but Christ in me....we are only spectators Beholding The Glory that The Son had in The Father before the world began...John 17:-
The Father reveals The Son and The Son Reveals The Father.

Blessings

This is something I've really been thinking about as well, but it's hard for me to tie into Genesis.

When it says "Let us make man in our image", how do you believe this applies to us? I have reasoned that perhaps it has to do with spreading the Gospel. I can see how the rest of Genesis has to do with us, such as separating the Light from darkness and bringing forth fruit, but I'm not sure what the Image means.