Warning and Judgement against a believer?

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I know in the OT God would warn his people and ultimately bring judgement upon his people if they did not repent.

Does God do this any way with a believer?

The Bible does say he chastises those whom he loves...
I will get back to you on this. I don't have time right now to go into the detail I need to. Suffice to say now that all our judgment was put on Christ.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I know in the OT God would warn his people and ultimately bring judgement upon his people if they did not repent.

Does God do this any way with a believer?

The Bible does say he chastises those whom he loves...
1 Cor. 11 deals with some problems concerning the Agape feast where rich Christians were mistreating poor Christians. He says, 'Some of you are sick and some of you sleep". James 2 dealing with the same problem asks if this is even saving faith. Yes even believers can be judged but just as the writing prophets of the either century ended with the promise of restoration God is ultimately focused on saving the believer on the last day.

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:5)
Final judgment has been likened to a fire:

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Cor. 3:15)
You can be judged and saved as by fire.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: DeerGlow
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I know in the OT God would warn his people and ultimately bring judgement upon his people if they did not repent.

Does God do this any way with a believer?

The Bible does say he chastises those whom he loves...
Chastisement isn't the same as judgment. All for whom Christ died have already been judged in Him and no longer need fear the wrath of God in judgment. As for the Old Testament people they were not all the people of God and God did judge them harshly as a people. The true saints among them often suffered as well because of their judgment but they were always made stronger and more faithful through it so it wasn't a judgment for them it was a trial of faith.

Just as you, as a parent, correct your child because you love it so does Our Lord correct us. It is often painful and difficult but it is always out of love for us not anger.

(Luk 11:13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
1 Cor. 11 deals with some problems concerning the Agape feast where rich Christians were mistreating poor Christians. He says, 'Some of you are sick and some of you sleep". James 2 dealing with the same problem asks if this is even saving faith. Yes even believers can be judged but just as the writing prophets of the either century ended with the promise of restoration God is ultimately focused on saving the believer on the last day.

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:5)
Final judgment has been likened to a fire:

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Cor. 3:15)
You can be judged and saved as by fire.

Grace and peace,
Mark
I suggest that you take a look at the context of the passage in 1 Cor. 5. If you do you will find that Paul is speaking about preachers not everybody. This is one of the most misused and misunderstood passages in the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with the judgement of believers at all but of those who seem to be the fruit and work of preachers who have built their work on wood , hay and stubble.

As far as 1Cor. 11 goes it is speaking of those who partake of the elements without faith in Christ drinking damnation to their soul. Your interpretation is akin to that of the RCC.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I suggest that you take a look at the context of the passage in 1 Cor. 5. If you do you will find that Paul is speaking about preachers not everybody. This is one of the most misused and misunderstood passages in the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with the judgement of believers at all but of those who seem to be the fruit and work of preachers who have built their work on wood , hay and stubble.

As far as 1Cor. 11 goes it is speaking of those who partake of the elements without faith in Christ drinking damnation to their soul. Your interpretation is akin to that of the RCC.

Ok the Agape feast was after the preaching and service was over, it's a fellowship meal. Problems surrounding it are discussed in both 1 Cor. 11 and James 2 and you need only read the passage in it's immediate context to see that clearly:

Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. (1 Cor. 11:21-22)
That's how they were eating in an unworthy manner, they were depriving the poor in the love feasts. They were gorging themselves and getting drunk while the poor, most likely slaves, went home hungry. That is why some of them were sick and some of them slept. Check the context and while your at it you might want to take a look at James 2 because he is addressing the same thing.

But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (James 2:6-8)
James would go on to ask is this even saving faith? The separation at final judgment, as sheep from goats comes to mind.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: fat wee robin
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I know in the OT God would warn his people and ultimately bring judgement upon his people if they did not repent.

Does God do this any way with a believer?

The Bible does say he chastises those whom he loves...

There's a passage in scripture (Isaiah, think) that speaks of how God warns the lawless again and again, each time upping the severity of the consequences until eventually they run out of chances.

Correction: the passage is Leviticus 26 :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
There's a passage in scripture (Isaiah, think) that speaks of how God warns the lawless again and again, each time upping the severity of the consequences until eventually they run out of chances.

This might be what you are thinking about, I puzzled over this passage for a while before it made sense to me:

“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.” (Isaiah 28: 9, 10)
The prophet comes looking for them when the prophets and priests don't show up for work, so to speak. The place is a wreck, people have gotten sick here and there and they are all very drunk. Isaiah starts in on them and they respond with 'who is he going to teach, babies!" It's always line on line, precept on precept. Then he pronounces an ominous judgment that would send the tribes of Israel to the four winds, at a time when they had nothing to fear from anyone. You wouldn't receive the simple line on line, precept upon precept so I'm going to talk to you in a language you don't understand and he is talking about the Assyrians who would invade Israel.

Grace and peace.
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This might be what you are thinking about

Ah, no, I corrected myself in an edit. The passage is Lev 26

. You wouldn't receive the simple line on line, precept upon precept so I'm going to talk to you in a language you don't understand and he is talking about the Assyrians who would invade Israel.

Ha, yes, that's a very similar stance.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Ah, no, I corrected myself in an edit. The passage is Lev 26

Ha, yes, that's a very similar stance.

I see, it was kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack because the prophets spoke a lot of this. The passage in Leviticus 26 hadn't occurred to me. you directly tied the passage in Isaiah 28, excellent:

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. (Lev. 26:14-16)
I don't know why I never thought of that before, of course the prophets always look back to the law even as they looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inkfingers
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Ok the Agape feast was after the preaching and service was over, it's a fellowship meal. Problems surrounding it are discussed in both 1 Cor. 11 and James 2 and you need only read the passage in it's immediate context to see that clearly:

Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. (1 Cor. 11:21-22)
That's how they were eating in an unworthy manner, they were depriving the poor in the love feasts. They were gorging themselves and getting drunk while the poor, most likely slaves, went home hungry. That is why some of them were sick and some of them slept. Check the context and while your at it you might want to take a look at James 2 because he is addressing the same thing.

But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (James 2:6-8)
James would go on to ask is this even saving faith? The separation at final judgment, as sheep from goats comes to mind.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Eating unworthily is in the part where Paul is actually giving instruction concerning the Lord's Supper. It was supposed to be love feast not a potluck as many seem to think. Paul's instruction was not about how to treat the poor, though he did address it in the beginning, it was about how to celebrate the Lord's Supper. To eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink without true faith in Christ. Some were sick and others slept because they were unbelievers not because they were being judged.

I do not at all discount how we are told to treat the poor among us I just look at the context of the passage according to the light given me. Paul and James are not speaking of the same issue here.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I see, it was kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack because the prophets spoke a lot of this. The passage in Leviticus 26 hadn't occurred to me. you directly tied the passage in Isaiah 28, excellent:

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. (Lev. 26:14-16)
I don't know why I never thought of that before, of course the prophets always look back to the law even as they looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

Grace and peace,
Mark
When did anyone actually keep the Law? The purpose of the Law was to drive them to Christ, as pictured in all the Law, not to give them hope in it.

Isa. 28 is altogether another passage that speaks clearly of the consequences of refusing to hear the word of the Lord. It speaks of those who have made a covenant with death and think that judgment will not come near them who teach false things to the people and lead them to destruction. The judgment is on false preachers and their false doctrines and prophecy.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Eating unworthily is in the part where Paul is actually giving instruction concerning the Lord's Supper. It was supposed to be love feast not a potluck as many seem to think. Paul's instruction was not about how to treat the poor, though he did address it in the beginning, it was about how to celebrate the Lord's Supper. To eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink without true faith in Christ. Some were sick and others slept because they were unbelievers not because they were being judged.

I do not at all discount how we are told to treat the poor among us I just look at the context of the passage according to the light given me. Paul and James are not speaking of the same issue here.

Oh but they are talking about the same issue, they are virtually identical:

Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. (1 Cor. 11:21-22)
Clearly there was a fellowship meal associated with the Lord's Supper in this context. Notice one is hungry and another drunk, I don't see how you are missing this. The fellowship meal was a part of the Lord's Supper and until you manage to see this your going to miss the whole point. I strongly suggest you consult the text.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
When did anyone actually keep the Law? The purpose of the Law was to drive them to Christ, as pictured in all the Law, not to give them hope in it.

Isa. 28 is altogether another passage that speaks clearly of the consequences of refusing to hear the word of the Lord. It speaks of those who have made a covenant with death and think that judgment will not come near them who teach false things to the people and lead them to destruction. The judgment is on false preachers and their false doctrines and prophecy.

There is nothing in Isa. 28 about false prophecy, it's focused on their behavior:

And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions. (Isaiah 28:7)​

They were obviously drunk and not only that they are on a binge. Why don't you consult the text and we can work on an exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0