• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

War Crime Pardons

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by RocksInMyHead, May 21, 2019.

  1. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,004
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    President Trump recently pardoned Lt. Michael Behenna, convicted of killing an Iraqi prisoner, and appears to be preparing to pardon several others convicted or accused of similar acts.

    This undermines the UCMJ - under which all but the civilian contractors were charged - as well as damages our credibility and good name as a nation. It sends a message to the troops that this sort of behavior is tolerated by their commander-in-chief and that they should not bother to report it. There's already a culture within the military, and certain units especially, that discourages "tattling." See the story behind Eddie Gallagher's accusation for an example, where the troops that reported him were told that their careers would suffer for it if they pushed the issue. Reinforcing that culture will only be hurtful in the long run.

    Further, it suggests to other nations that our soldiers are free to commit crimes - both against combatants and civilians - without facing punishment. This damages any goodwill we might try to cultivate with civilians in countries where our troops are stationed.
     
    • Winner Winner x 6
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Goonie

    Goonie Not so Mystic Mog. Supporter

    +5,887
    United Kingdom
    Atheist
    Single
    Don't be surprised when people who in other threads are claiming to be pro_life, demonstrate that falsehoood on this thread.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +19,491
    Anglican
    Married
    Good for him. Other presidents pardon people simply as a political favor to someone or other. It is about time that people who were wrongly convicted were shown some mercy.
     
  4. Paulos23

    Paulos23 Never tell me the odds!

    +1,120
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    How do you know they where wrongly convicted?
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  5. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

    +1,706
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    He was wrongly convicted?
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,255
    Anabaptist
    ??
    People from other countries apparently lost all hope in the usa decades ago - there is no "good name as a nation" - no integrity for a long time already ....
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,255
    Anabaptist
    z "OUR SOLDIERS" ADMIT freely that they committed crimes against civiliams, for many decades now,
    from vitnm to afgan to irq to krea !!! UNDER ORDERS! (not only "without facing punishment") !
     
  8. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,004
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    So we should just give up then? It's possible to rehabilitate our reputation - it was generally improving under Obama, for example. Pardoning convicted war criminals isn't how to do that though.

    Again, this is a situation we should endeavor to fix, not perpetuate.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,255
    Anabaptist
    To me this is as if, or like if a member of Russia "in good standing" there, (communist or other) said
    that they were coming here (to the usa) to "fix" what is wrong, to make the usa better place....

    Sorry, no. That doesn't work.
     
  10. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

    827
    +652
    Philippines
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Others
    "It's insulting to all veterans who served honorably when the president pardons war criminals. But I wouldn't expect him to understand that, because he's never upheld American values." -- Bronze Star recipient Seth Moulton former Captain USMC, who served four tours of duty in Iraq from 2003 to 2008.

    Sums up my sentiments pretty well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  11. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

    +11,472
    Canada
    Freethinker
    Married
    For many decades now the USA has refused to sign treaties to permit international courts to try US soldiers or civilians for war crimes or crimes against humanity. This places nationalism above justice and this recent pardon simply flaunts that and further destroys international respect for the USA.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  12. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,004
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    What does this even mean?

    Edit: If you're trying to say that these people were convicted by international courts, you'd be wrong. The soldiers were tried by the US military justice system, and the civilian contractor was convicted in federal court.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  13. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

    +15,899
    Agnostic
    Single
    On what basis do you claim they were wrongly convicted?
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 2
    • List
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,316
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Were you on the courts martial board and reviewed all the evidence?
    How do you know they were not wrongly convicted?
    There is a series on TV where a group of people review convictions for the purpose of getting prisoners released who were wrongfully convicted. The judges and persecuting attorneys adamantly maintain that they were lawfully convicted but in many cases the investigators find exculpatory evidence which was either ignored or suppressed.
    I just watched one a night or two ago where a "witness" originally claimed that the suspect confessed everything to him in jail. The investigators questioned him and he admitted that the police fed him all the detail about the crime that the suspect supposedly said.
    I don't think anyone posting in this thread can make an informed opinion on any of this.
    FYI I am retired military I was courts martialed early in my career when I had been in the military for less than 4 years and I served as a defense counsel later in my career, when I had more than 15 years service. As a commander I referred service members for courts martial and appeared as a witness.
     
  15. wing2000

    wing2000 E pluribus unum Supporter

    +5,057
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    From the linked article:

    Mr. Mansur was bound and blindfolded during the interrogation, which lasted between two and three minutes, according to the court filing. Mr. Mansur’s clothes were cut off with a knife.

    “This is your last chance to tell the information or you will die,” Lieutenant Behenna told Mr. Mansur, according to a military court filing. Mr. Mansur said that he would talk, it said, but Lieutenant Behenna shot him.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • List
  16. RichardY

    RichardY Panentheist Whig.

    214
    +56
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Single
    If I were in that situation. I'd be inclined to execute all prisoners in the field, orders or not. They could be concealing a grenade or IED. If they can not be easily detained, they may also report the squads position and tie up personnel. If they need information, they should use whatever means necessary, whilst retaining discipline.

    The USA military should be securing the borders of the USA. Same with the UK. Those that died, have died for worst than nothing. Saddam Hussein should have been left in charge.

    If they're good people and not atheists, they're going to heaven anyway.

    500,000 children die due to lack of chlorine, in water decontamination due to sanctions, after The Gulf War and that's not a bigger issue. "We think the price is worth it."
     
  17. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,004
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Since when is that a requirement for being critical of a decision to pardon someone?


    In general, I tend to agree with you on this, however, there are several irregularities here.

    1. Not all of the cases have been tried yet, so no one has seen all of the evidence. Preemptive pardons (e.g. Joe Arpaio, Richard Nixon) can be nothing but politically-motivated. And I don't see what the political benefit is here beyond feeding Trump's base.

    2. Those pushing for the pardons are not advocacy groups like the one you mentioned. So far, the main people I've seen supporting them have been family members (obviously), congressmen, and a Fox News host. These are not unbiased sources.

    3. In a couple of the cases, the accused has admitted to the crimes of which he was accused/convicted - even on live TV.

    4. Normally, advocates submit requests for pardons/clemency to the Justice Department, which then reviews the cases and passes those that it believes has merit on to the President. In these cases, Trump requested the paperwork directly, bypassing the review process.


    While none of us can say for certain whether or not these men are truly guilty, I think it's reasonable to comment on the message that these pardons send given the publicly-available evidence and the results of those trials that have already been completed, as well as the irregularity of the process by which they are being pushed through.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  18. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

    +15,899
    Agnostic
    Single
    Pretty much one half of the universal rationalization for any atrocity... "they do horrible things so they deserve it!" being the other.
     
  19. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +7,335
    United States
    Married
    It does not undermine the UCMJ. As the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, the President of the United States has the authority under both the Constitution and the UCMJ to issue pardons.
     
  20. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,004
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Having the authority to do something doesn't mean that using that authority won't undermine the process. In this situation, for example, two of the cases that Trump is considering have yet to go to trial. This means that by preemptively pardoning them, Trump would be expressing a complete lack of faith in the military justice system (or an explicit approval of their actions - which weakens the UCMJ, under which they were charged).

    I think this article explains my position pretty well: https://www.justsecurity.org/64185/...-military-justice-and-military-effectiveness/
     
Loading...