Want to ask EO about Theosis.

Jesse Dornfeld

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Hello, long time since I've been here.

I think I have just never had theosis explained to me right because when I do just a tiny bit of introspection, I can see very clearly how far I am from the throne of grace.

I've heard it explained as "union with God" and more or less just stated as sanctification.

If it is union with God, then does that mean you become "without sin"? I was told it does not entail sinlessness, which is very confusing for me. Secondly, if it is just a kind of sanctification, then I am not sure why we need the term theosis at all as categorizing theosis then becomes arbitrary.

I ask this with a humble heart wanting to understand rather than criticize. I hope someone here can help me out.
 

Ceallaigh

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Hello, long time since I've been here.

I think I have just never had theosis explained to me right because when I do just a tiny bit of introspection, I can see very clearly how far I am from the throne of grace.

I've heard it explained as "union with God" and more or less just stated as sanctification.

If it is union with God, then does that mean you become "without sin"? I was told it does not entail sinlessness, which is very confusing for me. Secondly, if it is just a kind of sanctification, then I am not sure why we need the term theosis at all as categorizing theosis then becomes arbitrary.

I ask this with a humble heart wanting to understand rather than criticize. I hope someone here can help me out.
I found this brief summation very helpful towards understanding.

 
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HTacianas

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Hello, long time since I've been here.

I think I have just never had theosis explained to me right because when I do just a tiny bit of introspection, I can see very clearly how far I am from the throne of grace.

I've heard it explained as "union with God" and more or less just stated as sanctification.

If it is union with God, then does that mean you become "without sin"? I was told it does not entail sinlessness, which is very confusing for me. Secondly, if it is just a kind of sanctification, then I am not sure why we need the term theosis at all as categorizing theosis then becomes arbitrary.

I ask this with a humble heart wanting to understand rather than criticize. I hope someone here can help me out.

To attain theosis is to become God-like. No one ever fully attains it in this life. Those who progress towards it are said to receive spiritual gifts such as healing and visions. It's not something the regular layman can ever achieve. It's one of the reasons Paul preferred to remain celibate rather than to marry:

1Co 7:32 ...He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

1Co 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

The things of the world become a distraction in attaining theosis. Someone caring for the things of the world simply doesn't have the time to commit to it. Those with the time are found in monasteries around the world. They practice discipline and meditation and prayer. As Jesus said:

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

To enter into a closet is to remove yourself from the world and devote yourself to prayer. There are monks who spend weeks at a time in prayer in their attempt to attain theosis. It can only be done in a closet away from the things of the world.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I found this brief summation very helpful towards understanding.


Thanks for that. I more or less agree with what this man said when I measure it up to my own heart. Only one thing of concern. It is logical that we progress in heaven, but I do not see any evidence of this happening in the Bible. This man mentioned wearing black. I wear black every day. On Sunday I wear a Christian Metal band shirt but the rest of the days I wear the same exact thing almost every day depending on the weather. I don't need a variety of different clothing, black will do.

To attain theosis is to become God-like. No one ever fully attains it in this life. Those who progress towards it are said to receive spiritual gifts such as healing and visions. It's not something the regular layman can ever achieve. It's one of the reasons Paul preferred to remain celibate rather than to marry:

1Co 7:32 ...He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

1Co 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

The things of the world become a distraction in attaining theosis. Someone caring for the things of the world simply doesn't have the time to commit to it. Those with the time are found in monasteries around the world. They practice discipline and meditation and prayer. As Jesus said:

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

To enter into a closet is to remove yourself from the world and devote yourself to prayer. There are monks who spend weeks at a time in prayer in their attempt to attain theosis. It can only be done in a closet away from the things of the world.

Thanks. So many thoughts from this post.

I do not mean to be arrogant here. That is not my goal and you will likely not believe me when I tell you this, but it is only what I have experienced.

I have experienced a vision of heaven and a dream of hell. The dream came first and was basically that I saw some sort of holy man in the fires of hell and he was completely unharmed and not taking any care about it. In the vision of heaven, it would take some time to unpack the whole thing, but basically, I was "shot through" to a high place in heaven.

It is also possible I have the gift of prophecy and not only that but healing as well. One day, I was sensing from the Lord to tell one of my elders to pray his wife gets a new heart. I did not know what this meant at the time but some degree of time after that, his wife got heart transplant surgery. As far as healing goes, there was a time when I prayed for healing for a man in the name of Jesus. He had gotten into a fight and dislocated his shoulder. At first, I was tempted to say, "It is his own fault that he hurt his shoulder for getting into a fight." But I was moved with compassion for him so I made a deal with God that if the man was outside the next time I went out there that I would ask to pray for him. He was there and he asked me if I knew how to put his shoulder back in joint. I said I could pray for him instead. I barely touched the man but shortly after laying hands on him and praying for healing in Jesus' name, his shoulder was put back into joint. I overheard him saying to his relative, "When that guy prayed for me he put my shoulder back in joint." So I asked him directly and said, "Did my prayer do anything for you?" And he says, "Yeah, it definitely did something." So I prayed for him again and after getting him a soda and an ice pack, later he sent me a text message saying he went to the ER and they said his shoulder was fine. Another story, but much less believable as I myself do not know what happened here exactly. It was Sunday morning at church. There was a relative of one of the members of our church who was said to have been pronounced dead by suicide after he was in grief because his son drowned. Both I and another member of our church prayed for him. I cannot remember the other member's prayer, but I myself prayed that God would breathe life into that situation. And wouldn't you know it, after this man had been pronounced dead, he is alive today as far as I am aware.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Only one thing of concern. It is logical that we progress in heaven, but I do not see any evidence of this happening in the Bible.

what do you think it means when the NT says we go from glory to glory?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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what do you think it means when the NT says we go from glory to glory?

Seems to be talking about here on earth and not in heaven. Feel free to correct my exegesis.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Thanks for that. I more or less agree with what this man said when I measure it up to my own heart. Only one thing of concern. It is logical that we progress in heaven, but I do not see any evidence of this happening in the Bible. This man mentioned wearing black. I wear black every day. On Sunday I wear a Christian Metal band shirt but the rest of the days I wear the same exact thing almost every day depending on the weather. I don't need a variety of different clothing, black will do.
He meant dressed in priest's clothing. Being in uniform so to speak.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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He meant dressed in priest's clothing. Being in uniform so to speak.

Thank you. Yes, I know. I do not consider myself a priest, just to clarify.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Seems to be talking about here on earth and not in heaven. Feel free to correct my exegesis.

it doesn’t say that it’s not in heaven. even if you want to say it is on earth, nowhere does it say that it ends in this life.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The important thing to me is salvation being a daily process. The focus on here and now. Continually progressing away from the flesh and ourselves towards God. So many as Metropolitan Ware points out are stuck on being saved as in going to heaven, as if that's all there is to salvation. Thinking of the destination rather than the journey.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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it doesn’t say that it’s not in heaven. even if you want to say it is on earth, nowhere does it say that it ends in this life.

True, it does not say it ends at death. But the context is about the world in the here and now, not a later day sometime in the future after we die. As I said, the position is logical, I just don't think there is a clear line there in the Bible.
 
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ArmyMatt

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True, it does not say it ends at death. But the context is about the world in the here and now, not a later day sometime in the future after we die. As I said, the position is logical, I just don't think there is a clear line there in the Bible.

well, theosis begins here and now.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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well, theosis begins here and now.

Thanks for the conversation Matt (and others). I have a better idea of what theosis is now. I simply call it sanctification. Else, it seems like striving for Spiritual perfection where things "unlock" with enough effort. My perspective is that God is Sovereign and so God can work in people any way He wants even despite their imperfections (Isaiah, Samson, etc). This does not mean I look down on effort. It just means I put the ball in God's court. I know I have grown in sanctification because I saw recently what I wrote on another forum and I can tell that I am a lot more gentle now. It is something I strive for. I suppose that idea is a little theosis in itself - striving to be gentle I mean. My therapist who is a Catholic thinks I strive too hard for perfection and then when I don't measure up I get down on myself. But it encourages me to keep trying to do better next time when I fail. With God's grace, I will see improvement.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks for the conversation Matt (and others). I have a better idea of what theosis is now. I simply call it sanctification. Else, it seems like striving for Spiritual perfection where things "unlock" with enough effort. My perspective is that God is Sovereign and so God can work in people any way He wants even despite their imperfections (Isaiah, Samson, etc). This does not mean I look down on effort. It just means I put the ball in God's court. I know I have grown in sanctification because I saw recently what I wrote on another forum and I can tell that I am a lot more gentle now. It is something I strive for. I suppose that idea is a little theosis in itself - striving to be gentle I mean. My therapist who is a Catholic thinks I strive too hard for perfection and then when I don't measure up I get down on myself. But it encourages me to keep trying to do better next time when I fail. With God's grace, I will see improvement.

no problem. and yeah, theosis is sanctification. it’s just understood in a very intimate way with God.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Just one last clarifying question as it does not appear I have gotten an answer for it yet.

Does theosis imply being "without sin"? Personally, I think that would imply an anti-Biblical conclusion for a few reasons, one of which is 1 John 1:8.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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eventually, yes. but that doesn’t mean the person didn’t sin in the past or isn’t ensnared by sin.

How might one achieve theosis on earth such that it entails being "without sin" beyond what the Apostles were able to do?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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allow Christ to work through you.

Fair in that it is a simple answer. I don't believe it is possible to ascend beyond the Apostles in this life (or ever probably) however. There is an interesting thing written in Revelation though. It is about the 24 elders, not the 13 Apostles.
 
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