Walsingham

[MilesVitae]

now, the pre-Schism Western Liturgies on the other hand are wonderful.

What's an example of a pre-schism western liturgy?

 

[All4Christ]

this has come up in ROCOR, about using the early Western Liturgies more to attract Western Christians. the Liturgy of St. Tikhon I have seen, and if you like it that's awesome, but I found it lacking personally.

now, the pre-Schism Western Liturgies on the other hand are wonderful.

Would that be the Tridentine Mass version?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I enjoy visiting a WR church about once a year on the anniversary of my friend's mom's chrismation. It is a good experience though I won't be leaving the DL unless there was no English speaking Eastern Orthodox rite church and there was a WR English speaking church. I doubt that would happen though since the WR is fairly rare. They celebrate the liturgy based off the Tridentine mass. It is interesting to see!

The biggest qualm I have is that they still have the Celebration hymnal at each pew. They only sing a few select songs that are Orthodox in theology, but that particular hymnal has a lot of non-Orthodox theology in other songs (do you remember that hymnal @Kylissa ?) They may not sing those un-Orthodox songs, but it makes me uncomfortable to see it in the church.

Beyond that, while it is not the same as ours, it is good to see a Western style service that has sound Orthodox theology. It reminds me of the universality of Orthodoxy, especially in the historic Western Orthodox Church before the split. That said, the DL is universal in and of itself as well.

I'm afraid I've seen so many hymnals, I don't really have in mind which is which. But I agree that it would surprise me to see books in the pew with any non-Orthodox theology.

Does that mean they vary the hymns in a way more typical of Western denominations? Which I guess could mean anything - sometimes every hymn is new every week, and sometimes a congregation stays with a few standards only, while many fall somewhere in between.

I wouldn't expect to change either. I'd probably take a non-English-speaking Divine Liturgy first. Our singing is often mostly in Greek, and I've just learned the Greek from the hymns. And I could read the daily Scriptures myself. But I'd miss the homily being in English, it is true. (And tbh, I wish I could understand the lines from the Psalms that are chanted.) It would be a difficult choice - but I'd probably stay with the Divine Liturgy in any language.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm not looking to change over in any way. I very much love our Divine Liturgy. I'd just like to see the other to know what it's like.

oh I hears you. I have a buddy who wants to do the pre-Schism Western Rites for Orthodox Western saints. so we shall see (and obviously, this is the Church's call)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would that be the Tridentine Mass version?

pretty much, with some return to Orthodox theology tweaking

 

[ArmyMatt]

What's an example of a pre-schism western liturgy?

pretty much ROCOR is looking back to what the Tridentine Mass was, as close to what St Gregory wrote, which is fully Orthodox. I have read some of the prayers and they are awesome.

 

[MilesVitae]

pretty much ROCOR is looking back to what the Tridentine Mass was, as close to what St Gregory wrote, which is fully Orthodox. I have read some of the prayers and they are awesome.

Groovy. There's a couple of Western Rite parishes near me (both Antiochian, I think) that I've been thinking about visiting - not entirely sure what liturgies they use, though from the description on one of the websites, it sounds like that's what that parish is using.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Groovy. There's a couple of Western Rite parishes near me (both Antiochian, I think) that I've been thinking about visiting - not entirely sure what liturgies they use, though from the description on one of the websites, it sounds like that's what that parish is using.

cool beans, I say check them out. personally, I love St John's Liturgy, but if a pre-Schism Mass is your thing, ain't no complaints from me

 

[All4Christ]

pretty much, with some return to Orthodox theology tweaking

That's the version I've been to on occasion. Definitely a good experience though I prefer the DL. I'd love to travel back in time to experience it pre-schism

 

[MilesVitae]

cool beans, I say check them out. personally, I love St John's Liturgy, but if a pre-Schism Mass is your thing, ain't no complaints from me

Just checked into it - they're both Antiochian Orthodox and one speaks of the "old Latin mass - except in English," while the other specifically says they use the liturgy of St. Gregory. Funny fact about the latter one - the little, one-stop-light town it's located in (Warren, Massachusetts) has quite an...interesting... assortment of religious groups there. Besides the Western Rite Orthodox, a friend of mine is a member at a Catholic parish that says the old Latin Mass, and from what he tells me there is also a group of Jehovah's witnesses up there, as well as, to top it off, some bizarre psuedo-Catholic group who claim to have a Pope in Canada....

 

[ArmyMatt]

Besides the Western Rite Orthodox, a friend of mine is a member at a Catholic parish that says the old Latin Mass, and from what he tells me there is also a group of Jehovah's witnesses up there, as well as, to top it off, some bizarre psuedo-Catholic group who claim to have a Pope in Canada....

haha, God bless America

 

[All4Christ]

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." -St. John Maximovitch

 

[Dewi Sant]

Orthodoxy is not an ethnophilic club; the issue regarding rites and uses requires considerable thought.

 

[Dewi Sant]

 

[All4Christ]

the issue regarding rites and uses requires considerable thought.

Agreed. The difficulty regarding the Western Rite is the fact that the organic development of the Western Rite was broken off with the schism. To use the Western Rite now, we have to reclaim what was lost.

Is the Orthodox Western Rite liturgy valid? Absolutely in my opinion. Is it the best option to encourage people to follow? Probably not, as it encourages the thought that the Eastern Rite is...well...Eastern, and that if you are Western, you should be using the Western version.

In reality, the pre-schism mass is no longer used (I believe) anywhere except the Western Rite Orthodox Churches. Why use this liturgy instead of the liturgy of St John, which has continuous organic development within the Orthodox Church? I'm not sure. Could we use Gregorian style chant with the liturgy of St John for the Western Rite instead of having a different liturgy altogether?

I don't know the best solution. The Liturgy of St Gregory is a beautiful liturgy though, as is the Gregorian Chant.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is the Orthodox Western Rite liturgy valid? Absolutely in my opinion.

indeed, and even the Liturgy of St Tikhon is fully Orthodox, even though it is very watered down. the folks who made it I think just took modern Western practices, corrected errors, and it was presented as Orthodox. but the Church recognizes them, so if that floats your boat, go for it.

 

[All4Christ]

indeed, and even the Liturgy of St Tikhon is fully Orthodox, even though it is very watered down. the folks who made it I think just took modern Western practices, corrected errors, and it was presented as Orthodox. but the Church recognizes them, so if that floats your boat, go for it.

The interesting thing is the perspective of some priests on the matter. I was directed by my priest (OCA) to limit my attendance at Western Rite services and to never go there as an alternative to a feast day, Lenten service, etc. Is that a common perspective in the other jurisdictions as well?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is that a common perspective in the other jurisdictions as well?

I dunno, I know folks from all jurisdictions who have no issue with the Western Rite (especially St Gregory's), and the only one that folks usually gripe about is the Liturgy of St Tikhon

 

[All4Christ]

I dunno, I know folks from all jurisdictions who have no issue with the Western Rite (especially St Gregory's), and the only one that folks usually gripe about is the Liturgy of St Tikhon

I never specified which liturgy. Maybe he thought it was the liturgy of St Tikhon?

 

[ArmyMatt]

maybe, that is the one that most don't prefer